2 new ads for 400 in UK one manual and one auto

I wouldn't buy a key ring from that dealer,never mind a Ferrari.

 

Good old foskers trying to find market values in the UK...

 

Anyone considering buying the 5 speed would be advised to have its identity confirmed by Ferrari Classiche.

 

Curious, about what would need to be confirmed... is this because it is / may be presumed to be a non-original 5 speed car? Or something else?

Cheers!

Ruben

 

Ruben,
It currently has a different serial number to the one it left the factory with. Its present serial number is the same as a LHD 400 auto in Germany.

David

 

I paid a visit to Kent this week and looked at the 400gt. I asked about the serial number issue

and was told that the car was delivered in France and that unlike Maranello in the Uk it is not

possible to look up the dealer/factory correspondence. The factory papers show it as lhd/auto

but the car I looked at shows no sign of being messed with or converted in either respect. I

was also told that they have never seen actual evidence of another car with the same serial

number existing. Can anyone shed any light?

 

Absolutely, I have done some research on the subject. 24801 according to the factory was a silver/beige 400 auto delivered new in France. It has been repainted blue and is now in Germany. I have seen the chassis plates, chassis stampings and engine stamping and a friend has been in correspondence with the owner.

I believe I know the original identity of the red Foskers 400 GT (which since 1983 has used the serial number 24801) but have not had a chance to inspect it. Did you by any chance look at the chassis stampings and the engine number stamping?

David

 

This is really interesting as I was planning on a visit to see the GT. Thank goodness for forums like these

 

No, I did not check out any serial numbers as I was not aware then that there was a problem.

Foskers did tell me about the anomaly on the spec vs Ferrari paperwork which is why I

checked to see if it had any evidence of prior conversion. I am puzzled as to why anyone

would be faking numbers on a car that other than when new has always been a low

value Ferrari?

 

Sounds to me as if someone converted a 365GTB/4 Daytona to a 400i and thought they could get away with the serial number switch!

Okay, maybe not!

 

I wonder if the "original sales invoices" for the car show the serial number? They should. Especially if they are faked.

 

Looking at the number itself, 24801, it would be easiest to alter tags for 24301 if it disappeared mysteriously, into 24801 by stamping over the "3" with an "8".
A little more work could alter 21301 into 24801. Can't do much with "2", "0" or "1". Just a thought. Maybe totally irrelevant. But it wouldn't be the first time a car was re-identified.

 

There was only one RHD 400GT (5 speed) produced in the colour combination red/black. That is 23947. 23947 was registered VPH 672S, sold new to a Mr Iverson in 1978 and by 1980, owned by Mark Ramage. Mark was a serial Ferrari V12 2+2 buyer, A WW2 veteran and a chairman of a London PR Agency. For whatever reason, not long after acquiring 23947 Mr Ramage acquired a 400i GT, 35683, brand new in 1981. There is no trace of 23947 after c.1980, and Mr Ramage passed away in 2013 so what happened to it remains a mystery.

The red/black Foskers RHD 400GT was "imported" into the UK in 1983 and its prior history is essentially unknown.

When these cars were 2/3/4 years old, they were still valuable - think of the value of a similar age Ferrari FF today.

Somersett - did the Foskers car have an original warranty/service book?

David

 

Afraid I did not see a service or warranty book in with the paperwork. I was expecting a

simple low mileage all up-together car so was not looking for clues to a mystery. In any case

I have driven a couple of 400GT now and while it is vastly more entertaining aurally than the

later injected cars it still feels gruffer, less sweet and revvy than the 365. I also prefer the

look and the more comfy seats of the earlier car. So, anyone have a nice, up together 365

that needs a good new home?

 

Not sure if I'm getting confused on a Friday night but the first link now leads to a 400GT manual for sale with Justin Banks for £44,995 - red metallic with crema.
Is this the car being discussed?

 

The ad being discussed as since expired from that search, and what you see now are the CURRENT results of the search included in the URL. The car being discussed is no longer on that site.

 

Here's the Foskers car being discussed.

Registration HNM425Y.

Identity issue aside, it's a lovely original car.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

The justin banks car looks good

 

As David states above, there is a discrepancy with the identity of this car that we are fully aware of and have been investigating for some time - indeed, I’ve been talking about this with him for a few months now.

What we know without a shadow of a doubt is that the car we have is a genuine RHD manual gearbox 400 GT. However, what we also know is that its current chassis number is down on factory records as being delivered new to France (and not as RHD manual).

This car has lots of paperwork going back to 1983. It was sold in April that year to the previous owner by a company that is recorded on a sales invoice as ‘Elvaston’, based in Elvaston Mews, SW7. The name of the trader on the invoice appears to be ‘David C…’ (the rest of the signature is too obscure to be certain of the name).

To anticipate further queries on the car… the current chassis stamp, VIN plate and steering column numbers all match, and they have not been altered from another number. In other words, there’s no point in speculating on very similar chassis numbers that might have had a particular digit switched - that’s clearly not what’s happened in this instance.

To be absolutely clear, we are still in discussions with the relevant experts and officials to try to clarify the identity of this RHD manual car. If it does turn out to be 23947, then there are a few different steps that can be explored after this.

-Ed

 

The forgery is probably well done, though I don't have pictures of the plates you have on your red car.

The truth is that the true #24801 was delivered new by Pozzi, as a Silver on Tan Leather 400 Automatic.
This car stayed in France until 3 or 4 years ago, when he went to Germany, bought by a friend, member of the Club 400, he then sold the car to one of his friends, and it is still in Germany.

Does your car have a Pozzi Plate in the engine bay ? The correct car has this plate..and everythings matches, engine number included.
The only thing missing is I believe, the warranty book, that could have be used to give to your car a new life..

I hope you ll soon find what car is hidden Under your 24801.

Best Regards

Paul Dubois
History & Registry
European Ferrari Club 400

 

Thanks Paul - we'll get to the bottom of it one way or another.

If it does turn out to be 23947, the only thing I suspect we'll never know is exactly when and why this happened.

To anticipate further speculation... I have checked with all of the relevant sources and authorities in the UK and there is no information about 23947 anywhere, besides the fact that it was registered at some point (assuming the plate was 'VPM 672S' as per FOC records and not 'VPH 672S' as per the Maranello Archives).

-Ed

 

PS. It feels odd to comment on this thread without showing that I did read post #2...

My profile clearly states who I work for at present, so naturally I asked the poster about this statement privately to find out what it was based on.

Without mentioning any specific details, it refers to an experience about eight or nine years ago (long before my time) that fell way short of the high quality and top customer service that we strive to achieve. A real shame - and certainly not something that would happen today.

-Ed

 

Ed, most interesting and great to hear that you are working to clear this mystery up. I am probably stating the obvious but have you checked the engine number also? I am thinking that might perhaps be able to be matched against Ferrari records.

Jonathan

 

We have indeed, and I believe it is 'correct' to the chassis number it purports to be (assuming the numbers I've been given are correct). So no help there either...