1982 400iGT, #39425 - $69,500! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

1982 400iGT, #39425 - $69,500!

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by Schumi, Feb 4, 2015.

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  1. Pyrford Ranger

    Pyrford Ranger Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2011
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    Yep two 412 manuals for sale in uk currently, one is £60k the other is £70k ! 3 in Europe €75k
     
  2. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    Rob, who is offering them?
     
  3. Pyrford Ranger

    Pyrford Ranger Formula Junior

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  4. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

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    It's too bad I was scared off by (potential) maintenance costs on these 12-cyl beauties. I wanted one 6-7 years ago when I saw a few on the local market in the low 20s. At the time, as a "lowly GT4 owner," the last thing I needed were 12 more cylinders of maintenance and California SMOG burden. Oy.

    In all honesty, I'm delighted to see these cars finally getting their due. If I had the funds,
    I'd pay $65k or more all day for the above car - it's freakin gorgeous, and worth every cent. Unfortunately, I don't.

    Once upon a time, many other 12-cyl Ferraris were at this price - 250GTE, 330, etc. The question that keeps haunting me is this:

    "What if it's still a bargain at 60+?!"

    Only time will tell...
     
  5. Scott Ales

    Scott Ales Karting

    Sep 13, 2014
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    Any additional runway for value increase?
    Or, it's not that bad to be in second place!

    * What is the least expensive pre-1990 12 cyl. Ferrari to buy with a manual transmission and Weber carbs?

    * What is the second or next highest valued pre-1990 12 cyl. car with similar features?

    The spread between those two values is the current appreciation runway or opportunity for increase.

    So you have to not only watch what 365 and 400i variants are being sold and advertised for, but you have to watch the next choice up as well. The logic is really quite simple and cannot be refuted. An interested party may not be able to or won't pay the price to purchase the second car due to its increase in value as of late (when ever late occurs) so they turn to the second best. While not their first option, ask yourself if you have ever been forced to decide on your second choice. Or do you live a charmed live of having acquired every thing you ever wanted in the first thought?

    I personally think the next highest model is the Queen Mother car, 356 GT 2+2 but I am open to other opinions. And there is no question the Queen Mother variant is and will always be more valuable. They will never (IMHO) be equal in value. But what have comparable versions in condition and color been selling for? The spread between the two will provide you real insight to the buyers mind.

    Of course the same logic can be applied to the spread on a 365 GT4 2+2 and a 400i! So hang in there ladies and gentlemen, we have some immediate room to grow. The signal of the end or bubble will come from the "next" bigger cars. Not one of our versions that slips through the cracks cheap.

    In summary, this is one time it's not a bad thing to be in second place!

    Or, forget all my ramblings and just watch the Queen Mother values for a cue!
     
  6. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    Aaron, see my post #3 on this thread; it's still a bargain at 60.
     
  7. Perfusion

    Perfusion F1 Rookie

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    I believe you're right. Unfortunately, the 365/400/412 cars are the first of the "SMOG-required" era for front engined 12-Cyl Ferraris in California (anything '76 and newer must be SMOG'd), and I think that might scare off potential interested parties (i.e., myself).

    If I still lived in GA or AZ, this would be close to a no-brainer. Classic Ferrari with a V12 and 3 pedals, or a certified pre-owned Audi? Hmm... As if.
     
  8. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    While it might be nice to compare these cars with the earlier V12s and use that to say that they are underpriced and poised to catch up with those Enzo era cars, that may not be the proper comparison. Sure, we all remember $40K 250GTE and 250 Gt 2+2's but those body styles are of a different era and I'm not sure that the 400 series will ever be included with them.

    The 400 series cars are later and more transitional and, for better or worse are grouped with the era of the 308/328 and the Testarossas. While there are more Daytonas than there are of the 5 speed 365GT4 2+2/400/400i/412, the number of automatics swamps any production volume of the earlier cars up through the 365GTC/4.

    They are closer to the contemporary Ferraris than they are to the Enzo era Ferraris and therefore the prices of those contemporary Ferraris will have an effect as well.

    With manual transmission 550s and 456 Ferraris coming into the $50-85K area, someone looking at a 400i or 412 for $65K might well instead choose a nice 550 for the same price or a little bit more.

    I know that I would think long and hard about that choice.
     
  9. Scott Ales

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    Certainly these points are valid. But the Pre-1976 365s with Webers and a stick shift with very limited production numbers will be the first to move. It's unrealistic to think The Queen can sell for $175k+ and the 365GT4 2+2 would stay in the $30s-60s. My forecast is they will level out at $100k -$150k over the next 1-3 years. But it will have to be a manual trans, Weber carbed car to hit those values.
     
  10. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
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    I wish it were that simple, but is is not. The features you mention are technical, which are important - without interesting technicals, men won't be very interested in buying them. With that basis right, it is immediately followed by looks as pricing determinant. If you want to know what the next highflyer is, take along one or more smart women. The cars they like are the ones that will appreciate (or often already have). Usually those will be the sexy cars. As an example, women generally like the Miura while the Espada, not so much. For a long time the Miura sold at 3x the price of an Espada. Now it's more like 10 or more. That is where the difference is and always will be imho.

    Sex sells, and sex buys too... :D
     
  11. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    Apples and oranges. The 365/400/400i/412 series Ferraris are the last with Colombo-derived V12s and are a direct link to the Enzo era; they have no relationship in any way whatever with the eight cylinder cars. Buyers with interest in these cars will have no interest in the eights. They may be interested in the Maranellos that are seriously great cars but the 365-412 cars really satisfy a different automotive appetite.

    As to price and the market, two 412 5-speeds sold in UK last fall for US dollar equivalent of $90,000. Presently offered in Europe are two 412 5-speeds at Euro equivalent of $84K and $90K, less than current 575M or even recently rising 550.
     
  12. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    oh please! Men always and uniformly - not "generally" - like the Miura while the Espada, hein!

    I'm guessing most women will prefer a red 328GTS due to Tom Selleck.

    They might well also prefer any of the 2+2 line given that they have to consider entry and exit with high heels and tight skirts. LOL ROF!
     
  13. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Hi Seth:

    I would throw out any RHD UK prices without prejudice because it is an entirely different market with its own supply/demand equation.

    I'm not conversant enough about European import duties and VAT add ons that may affect prices there, but it is clear that prices of LHD versions in Europe are higher than in the U.S.

    i will disagree a bit on the 412/550 Maranello comparison (or any of the injected models). I don't think that the differences in buyer perception are as great as you think but that is my opinion and there is room for differences of opinions. Weber versions will appeal to a different buyer.

    Would you trade your 412 heads up for a similar condition and color 550? Maybe not, but I think that many people might choose the latter when considering purchasing a front engine V-12 Ferrari with modern air conditioning. Then again, with 3,600 550 Maranellos out there to only 576 412s, the higher supply of Maranellos might cause them to trade at a lower price than 412s.

    Cavallino Guida shows Maranellos selling for between $55,00-90,000 while 412s are shown as $30,00-40,000. The 365GT4 2+2 is shown as $20,000-55,000.
     
  14. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day John,

    The issue I have with the Cavallino Guida is that the basis of the valuations (i.e. sold prices, asking prices, moving average prices, historical average prices, etc) are not known nor how often they are updated. I say this, as the first 365Gt4 2+2 was sold this last Summer for $299 750 USD and this does not seem to be included in the Guida numbers:

    1972 Ferrari 365 GT4 2+2 Prototipo by Pininfarina | Monterey 2014 | RM AUCTIONS

    Granted the Prototype car is a special car, but I would suggest that it would have some (upward) affect to pricing, which appears missing from the Guida valuations.

    As you mentioned previously each market has its own price point based upon the local market's economic conditions (i.e. taxes, cost of living, supply/demand, etc) and so I believe that having an accurate single global valuation is extremely difficult... Adding to an already difficult analysis, we have a relatively small sample set of sold cars with the added variable of each sold car's condition... If anyone is able to decipher all this data and arrive at a formula or a global valuation, my hat is off to them!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  15. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Yup, all of the price guides have their strengths and weaknesses. Guida purports to be selling prices, which is good, but the data set is completely opaque. FML is an asking price guide and we all know that anyone can ask any price they want.

    Even someone recording auction prices and tracking condition has a tough time. IMO, most of the cars for auction in our category are not available for good due diligence and are unlikely to come with much, if any, service history. Those two information risks likely would cause a rational bidder to discount the price to bid but then again the "red mist" can take over at an auction, so who knows whether auction prices are low, on market or over market.

    AFAIK, 550 Maranellos and 456's are still depreciating. Maybe they will depreciate more or maybe they are close to bottoming out. At any rate, they are in that awkward age where they are too old for the crowd that wants to show off their wealth with a Ferrari and too new and too numerous to be sought after by the classic loving crowd.

    In other words, they could be really good value for a true enthusiast who is not concerned about newness but just wants to own and drive a true V12 supercar with modern features that is not too old and with no concerns about emissions controls. Not too dissimilar from the way that the 400i/412 was viewed 15 years ago.

    With 456GTs in the $50K range, that to me is serious competition for the 400i/412 range. Assuming that the notorious window problems have been addressed of course!
     
  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day John,

    You make a number of good points. I believe the buyers for the 456's , etc are or will be a different type than those looking/wanting the 365/4xx series... Indeed there will be some that simply wish a 12 cylinder GT car and for those they will probably look to the newer models for their improved systems (i.e. AC, etc)... effectively a nice car used for transport... the best bang for the buck type of buyer. However, I suspect that there are others that want an older 12 cylinder GT cruiser because it is classic, traditional, uncluttered, and unique car with a personality... Charms if you will... which I, and perhaps others, find somewhat lacking in the newer models and so the 456's and newer models are not even a consideration. Will this translate to the 365/4xx series being worth the same, more, or less than the newer GTs? Who knows for sure, but time will certainly tell.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  17. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    When I was close to buying my 400i, and over the years of my consideration in the years before, I always thought about the 456 as an alternative. Until I got serious enough to be ready to plop down money and then the 456 fell from consideration.

    It's too new. Too mid-90s jellybean. Terrible steering wheel (same as in the 355). No door window frames. And not really a classic shape......I probably feel about the 456 as the earlier generation felt about the classic 1970s shape of the 400.

    To me, I've always loved the folded paper design school.....and the 400 is part of that...the height of this school from one of the best...Pininfarina.

    Not to mention the last of the classic Colombo V12s and still basically handbuilt. The 456/550s were important cars for Ferrari....the Luca era cars will have their due for sure, but I do not think most 400 buyers will also cross shop to the 456 unless it is early in their decision process.
     
  18. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #43 intrepidcva11, Feb 16, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
    Hi John, I believe you are correct that the U.K. market is a thing apart. But cars in the Eurozone are almost certainly not imported so not subject to import duty. VAT is not included in the prices quoted.

    I agree that 365 and 400 carburetted cars appeal to a certain, probably small segment of Ferrari buyers, making some difference in market price.

    The question, would I trade my 412 for a 550 is an interesting one, not really germane as I also have a 575M. But if I didn't, being an auld phart, frankly it would pose a really tough question. For me the 412's attraction would of course be its history, also being the car Enzo drove, and the last Colombo 60 degree V-12. Too, I find the design to be extraordinarily beautiful, as did Peter Stevens, chief designer at Lotus, who called the 365/400/412 series "the most beautiful production cars of all time". Given that my thought has always been that Ferraris are for driving I'd likely take the Maranello, for me today the most beautiful Ferrari ever built and all the performance and handling for which any sane person could ever wish.

    All of that b.s. said, my thought is that 5-speed manual 412's in fine condition will soon be selling north of $100K. As will 550's that until the move of the last couple of months (that you may have missed seeing) have been by a wide margin the best buys in the entire Ferrari spectrum.
     
  19. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    I remember Philadelphia architect Vincent Kling commented when the mid-80's Chevrolet Impalas rolled out that they resembled sausages :D
    & it's unfortunate that Ferrari fell into the same rut. Even after Pininfarina completed their full size wind tunnel in 1972, traditional design still reigned
    in the Ferrari world until the end of our car's era (& Enzo's passing) :( :(
    It was a huge leap, some say forward, others… :eek: :eek:

    I'm familiar with him either driving or being driven around in a 365 but haven't come across any sure-fire evidence he drove the 412's. Any details??
     
  20. Scott Ales

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    One thing is a certainty. I won't be sending any interior parts off to "Sticky No More" from my 365 GT4 2+2! That has to count for something.
     
  21. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #46 intrepidcva11, Feb 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    None, except for Piero telling me so when we met at the Petersen Museum's reception opening its 'Ferrari at 50' exhibition. Walking toward my 330/365GTC speciale for the photograph he smiled and said his three favorite Ferraris were 1. the 330GTC, being the first Ferrari his father let him drive when he was 17; 2. the F40 as the apotheosis of the turbo era (this was 1997 after all) and the 365/400/412 series being the cars his father always used to drive and the best 'everyday' Ferrari.
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  22. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    #47 intrepidcva11, Feb 17, 2015
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    Bruce, I looked back at my files and came across this photo, described as il Commendatore driving his 365GT4 2+2; loks as though the image is taken from a newspaper clipping
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  23. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    That's the one I was referring to!

    Wow, good info Seth!
    I can understand why Enzo said what he said about the 365-412 cars being the best, they're the only ones you don't have to climb out of with a suit on :D
     
  24. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie
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    Gentlemen, Not knowing much about the 400i except that I like them, for this particular car knowing it sold in 2013 for 27.5 and has been driven 100 miles since, and no records, what is a good price for this car??
     
  25. intrepidcva11

    intrepidcva11 F1 Rookie
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    George, you don't really expect a straight up answer do you? Far too many questions to be answered before venturing a guess: what does a thorough PPI show? when last service and by whom? any serious issues? compression and leak down tests? What we do know is that yesterday's price is utterly irrelevant, as is the price of a 250GTO a year or three ago vs what it will cost to buy one today. Not that a 400i compares to a GTO but the market has changed since 2013. A lot.

    All we do know is that there were four bidders willing to pay at least $60K for the car.

    If you want it, $65K might buy it or another bidder might go $75K. That's what markets are.
     

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