1978 308 GTS with 348 TS drivetrain?

Greetings!

I have a harebrained idea. I would like the advice and knowledge of Ferrari afficionados before I undertake this.

I know of an otherwise complete 1978 308GTS for sale with no engine or transmission.

I also know of a complete drivetrain pullout--including subframe and rear suspension hub-to-hub--from a 348TS for sale.

I have worked on a 308 before.
http://jalopnik.com/5542526/the-worlds-first-reverse-fauxrarri
I did *NOT* do this incredibly horrible swap, but I did make the car driveable afterward. The owner bought the car already swapped, but undriveable with about 1" of compression travel in the rear suspension. I built the "top hat" structures at the tops of the rear struts, visible in the engine bay pics. They allowed the rear suspension to go from 1" of compression travel to 4" of compression travel. The owner said the car handled worlds better afterward. Obviously he sold it after I worked on it and it ended up back on eBay and Jalopnik.

I know that the 308 is a tube frame car. Based on my experience with the car I modified and on photos of the empty engine bay of the candidate chassis, I believe that I have the skills and expertise to mechanically adapt the 348 subframe to the 308 tube frame. I understand it will involve cutting and welding. However, because the 308 is a tube frame car, this is relatively straight forward as it will be purely structural. Botht the design and welding work will be top notch. The resulting car would have 348 rear suspension in addition to the engine and transmission.

I have done engine swaps before. The closest in terms of complexity is a Cadillac Northstar into a Pontiac Fiero. This involved structural modifications to the subframe as well as extensive wiring work, in addition to the usual engine swap items like coolant plumbing, shift linkage, etc.

My big questions/assumptions/reasoning:

Will it fit?
According to Wikipedia, the 308 has a 94 inch wheelbase and the 328 has a 92 inch wheel base. The 348 has a 96 inch wheel base. Are these numbers correct? Where do the additional 2" that the 348 has over the 308 show up?

I'm reasonably confident that it will fit, considering how large the 308's engine bay is and the unique layout of the 348 gearbox, keeping the axle right at the rear of the engine.

Can I get service information?
Can I get the factory service manual for the 308 and 348? Those two books will be extremely helpful.

Are there good parts suppliers who can get me Ferrari parts at reasonable prices?
BMW enthusiasts can go to www.realoem.com and look through the BMW parts catalog. Is there a similar resource for Ferrari parts?

Dry sump oil system:
The 348 uses a dry sump lubrication system, but the pictures I have of the powertrain don't show a tank. However, there are a couple of large braided lines connecting (well, not currently) to things that would be in the body to the right of the engine. I assume that the oil cooler and dry sump tank are there in the 348 body, and I will have to find or make suitable substitutes for use in the 308 body.

I found this thread with some fairly detailed pics of the 348 engine bay...
http://mbworld.org/forums/detailing-automotive-care/324334-oakes-detailed-ferrari-348-spider-rosso-red-overhaul.html
I'm assuming that's the oil tank at the right rear corner of the engine bay.

I understand that the 348 moved the radiators and other coolers to the sides of the car, so it would make sense for the oil flow from the engine to go straight out the side to the cooler, then back to the tank, then to the engine from the rear. This corresponds to the positions of the connections I see on the pictures of the powertrain. I could easily be wrong about the direction of flow, however.

Cooling System:
As mentioned above and shown in the 348 egine bay pics, the radiator is in the side of the car and the coolant overflow tank hovers just above the right header. Because the 308 has the radiator in front, I will have to find a location for the overflow tank. The overflow tank appears to be pressurized. I can find one to fulfill the same function, but in the interests of expedience and cost, it will probably be from a Cadillac or Corvette rather than a Ferrari.

Are the QV radiators larger than the 2V radiators to deal with the greater output of the QV engines?

Shift linkage:
The 308 uses a rod based shift linkage. I can't really tell from the pictures how the 348 gearbox is shifted. It should be straighforward, if multi-staged, to develop a shift linkage which will work.

Air Conditioning:
I'm not yet sure if the recipient chassis has air conditioning. I'm assuming that both cars use an R12 system, due to their age and production years. Custom A/C lines from the body to the compressor are straightforward to make.

Fuel supply:
The fuel connection is visible on the engine pictures. The 308 fuel tanks are essentially in the engine bay. I don't foresee a problem, even if I have to use an external Bosch 044 pump and remote pressure regulator.

Wheels:
I will address wheel offset changes related to differences in track width when I have the parts in hand to measure.

Engine management (the big one):
I have several ideas for how to tackle this.

1. Obtain all the Ferrari parts and use the Ferrari engine computer. Per Wikipedia, this is a *dual* Motronic 2.5 system. The pictures of the powertrain and of the 348 engine bay appear to show throttle by wire and hot-wire MAF per bank. The candidate engine does not include the ignition modules.

2. Use the 60-2 reluctor wheel and crankshaft sensor from the 348 engine to trigger a Motronic 3.3 from a BMW E34 540i with V8 (1993-1995). This box is tunable and can control a V8 with coil per cylinder ignition. However, in the BMW application it is designed for a single cable operated throttle and single MAF. I'm not sure how well the BMW software would handle the high RPM the Ferrari engine would turn, however.

I could *possibly* use the dual throttle by wire throttle bodies and control box from a BMW E32 750i. The drive by wire system is nearly independent of the engine computer in those cars. This would get a dual electronic throttle capability, but still only work with a single MAF. I would build ductwork to take the flow from a single MAF to the two throttles if I do this.

3. Use the 60-2 reluctor wheel and crankshaft sensor from the 348 engine to trigger a GM engine controller. The GM controller is fully hacked, but can only handle a single drive by wire throttle and single MAF. I would build ductwork to go from the single MAF and single throttle to the dual manifold inlets if I do this.

Thoughts?
Am I crazy?
Thanks for your attention!

 

For some reason the forum didn't send me any reply notifications.

I'd like very much *not* to do that, actually... I'm good with structures, but don't have much experience with bodywork.

Haha... To cut up a car that's already cut up would be best, of course, but I have no idea where that car is--although I could ask my customer if he knows the ownership chain... maybe it's available. Hmm... Hadn't been thinking along those lines. Thanks for the idea.

PM replied.

Thanks! I'll go through those a little later when I have more time.

Thanks! Downloading the 348 TS WSM now.

The candidate 308 doesn't *have* an engine... that's why I'm looking at it.

 

I spoke with both sellers over the weekend.

The powertrain seller is working with a buyer for just the suspension, which is actually good for me, as I only need the engine and transmission.

The chassis is in good shape and complete except for the powertrain, as the auction says. It will need to be stripped to bare metal and repainted.

How difficult is it to completely remove the body from a 308?

 

I should be getting the engine at the end of this week and making arrangement to ship the car.
The gears in my head are already turning.

Notice the transaxle mounting arms visible in these two pictures of a 355 gearbox:





The 348 gearbox has the mounting bosses for these arms cast into it, but one of the holes is not drilled. It doesn't look hard to drill and tap that hole in order to use the 355 mount arms.

Were these mount arms used on any other applications? Mondial?

I notice that this Mondial transaxle has studs to mount these arms: New Old Stock Complete Transaxle Ferrari Mondial T | eBay

Anyway, using these transmission mounting arms for 4 point driveline mounting looks like it will make mounting the driveline in the 308 a LOT easier than using the 3 point mounting with the high transmission mount that the 348 uses.

I found these on ebay, but $450 each strikes me as excessive. I can build parts to replace those for a lot less.
Ferrari F355 Gearbox Transmission Case Support #152246 | eBay

 

This is heavier than I expected, but not totally unexpected.

The transmission is MUCH larger than it looks in this photo. It's probably immensely strong. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it weighs 200 lbs.

Less 200 for the transmission and 35 for the palet leaves 460 for a complete engine. That's not bad for a *fully dressed* DOHC V8, but not exceptional either. Ferrari needs to step up to nylon intake manifolds like GM and BMW.



Also (thanks to davebdave for letting me grope his car) took some upskirt photos of a Mondial T:

The crossmember configuration is different than it is for the 308 body, but that's not such a big deal. I can cut out the existing crossmembers and weld in new ones in the Mondial/348 locations.

The fact that the one under the engine bolts in even allows the oil pan to be dropped with the engine in car. That's more thought toward maintenance than goes into a heck of a lot of cars on the market.

 

Thanks! I was wondering what had happened to the original engine. I appreciate that you were careful when removing it. That makes things easier for me.

Yes, it has covered a lot of miles!

As you can see in the photos above (why can I only post links and not pictures?) the Mondial mount arms are different than the 355's. They locate the mounts slightly to the rear (maybe an inch, as you said) of where the 355 mount arms locate the mounts.

The auction from which I bought this powertrain originally had the subframe and suspension also. The seller did me a favor and sold the subframe to someone else before I could get to it. There would be a lot of cutting involved in doing the entire subframe swap, when all that's necessary to install the engine is just a bit of welding for the mount pads and reworking the existing crossmembers.

PM sent.

 

200 lbs was a total WAG for the transmission weight.