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1962 Ferrari 250 GTO, chassis #3413 To Be Auctioned In Monterey

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Rossocorsa1, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    I was referring to those who have already decided they wanted this car. If I were one of those preparing to take a run at it, having done my due diligence, I would prefer to be the one that makes any changes to it.
     
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  3. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    But you will not have done your due diligence had you not engaged the qualified historians and restorers to know exactly what you'd be bidding on and potentially buying.
     
  4. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    #78 johnhoughtaling, Jun 24, 2018
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    GTOs are in such rarified air that in the market for a GTO, want a GTO. Those in the market for a GTO, know this car, as every GTO is well documented and there are not many big unknowns that matter about any of them. (This may not be true about other other cars, but not GTOs: they are too well documented). No one in the market is worried about the size of the spare or steering wheel. What they are doing is determining higher stuff: 1) what potential they have to buy any other GTO from one of the other owners at a 50m level: who would sell and who would not -much harder to look up and research, and 2) what it will take to buy it, and last the theoretical, 3) what should an S2 be worth next to the last two s1s. Getting help on 1 and 2 would be important, and there just a few guys who have an inside and personal relationship with the current GTO owners.

    Assuming there are no other GTOs on the horizon, my guess is the bid determination is 1) do I want an S2 at all at 50M level, as apposed to wait on an S1, 2) what should one of the best S2s be worth relative to one of the best S1s.

    The rest of the theoretical differences in GTOs in general is very interesting even fascinating in a fantasy football kind of way, but if you are in the market for a GTO you aren’t given these choices. You decide how much to fight for this one or wait on backchannels on others that may or may not come up anytime soon.

    What I find fascinating and real is the idea that as these cars pass the 50M mark, or even higher, are there any current owners out there that may get weak. And are there any global market events that could make the market (on GTOs go south)


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  5. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Thank you for articulating my same thoughts so clearly.
     
  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Oh lord. My point is pretty clear. It’s a Ferrari GTO. For those who operate at that level there aren’t many decisions to make. Like johnhoughajng stated - Series I or II? Am I okay with have a converted Series I GTO to a Series II? Can I stomach the price for the provenance and condition? Everything else can be corrected. Expertise and the finest restorations are all a factor of money.
     
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  8. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    You'd be surprised. The number or zeros behind the purchase price doesn't change basic car guy behavior. We love the hunt. We love the fun. But some of us, enjoy driving them more.
     
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  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #82 miurasv, Jun 24, 2018
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    John H: No doubt I've missed your point again but...

    I like 3413GT, a lot, and would love to buy it. My posts about it are because of my enthusiasm for it and therefore have an interest in its details. I also find that because it was converted from an S1 '62 body to a S2 '64 makes it more interesting. I like its Italian History in winning the National GT Championship and its IC Targa Florio victories. The tone of your post is that because GTOs are so rare and sought after any bidder should feel lucky to get the chance to buy such a car and doesn't even have to bother checking it as they are so well known. 3387GT took a long time to sell, as did 3809GT so they are not necessarily the easy sell you describe, and they do have to be actively marketed, especially at their price.

    You may think my questioning the spare wheel and steering wheel as trivial and minor, but these are things we can see, and they have not been documented. What about things we can't see for example inside the engine and the chassis? You say there are no big unknowns but who has inspected the chassis? Where is that documented and that it is the original chassis, straight and with no issues? What if it turned out that the chassis was a replacement neither commissioned by Ferrari or made by Vaccari then the car is no longer 250 GTO 3413GT. Are the number stampings on the engine, gearbox and axle authentic? Does it have its original crankshaft/correct Ferrari replacement? Is the cylinder block intact with no cracks? These are things that the current owner and the auction house , who I have no doubt are honourable, may be completely oblivious to. What maintenance records does the car have?

    I'm sorry but if I was going to seriously consider bidding on this car I'd want to know everything about it down to if it has the correct Borranis, and if they should have painted or chromed rims. I'd want Dyke/MM/PPP inspecting it, which would cost but be money well spent, as well as inspecting it myself. Of course most mechanical issues can be sorted but certain things can't. I certainly wouldn't want a car that had a story I'd have to tell when it was time for me to sell.

    The car I'm pretty sure will be absolutely fine. It seems to be a really great GTO, but Rossocorsa1, I'll let you get the Historians etc in after you've bought it and wish you luck in getting your $50M+ back if they find any major issues.

    Happy bidding!!!
     
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  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I might be wrong, but I don't think there are going to be any widows or orphans waving paddles.
     
  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Rossocorsa1, I'll let you get the Historians etc in after you've bought it and wish you luck in getting your $50M+ back if they find any major issues.

    Happy bidding!!![/QUOTE]


    Oh relax. Geeesh. This thread is all meant for an enjoyable exchange.

    I won’t be bidding on any GTO Anytime soon. I’m afraid Its slightly out of league.
     
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  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Anyone wishing to bid on a car at this level will have to declare such beforehand and the auction house will actively work to ensure they are aware of what they are buying and approximately what they might want to spend, to which end most (other than a few well connected types and known billionaires) will require letters of credit. This is to alleviate any misfortunes such as a drunk bidder rocking up and bidding $100 mm without the funds to pay. Now that wouldn't guarantee access to the car BUT you can bet any staff member at RM would organise a full appraisal, mechanical inspection, Massini report or any other reasonable request you may want. After all their job is to maximise bids, so nothing will be an issue if a qualified bidder although I doubt much will be made public.
     
  14. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    Sure MuiraSV you are right, and it’s pretty obvious that if the chassis and engine stampings on 3413 are faked, you are correct that this would be a significant value determination. Yes, it is possible that this extremely well documents GTO has had those things faked, and unknown to historians. And it’s possible that the owner and RM Sotheby’s could violate there representations and warranties given on the sale.

    It’s also possible that the engine block has significant and unrepairable cracks and the lack of an original engine block would affect the value. And yes someone is going to have the car looked over for these major points to verify the warranties before 50M plus is wired from one account to another. And if there is a violation of any major warranty the funds will never transfer.

    What I was doing was sharing what I considered to be the major deep thinking value determination I would have before really going after the car.

    I agree with the OP. And was fleshing out details about what my linking wound be and what I suspect others like me would be. And while there might be a slight mocking tone of the OP bidding, I’m just saying I agree with his general thoughts. And while the OP isn’t in the market at this level. Recent events have made it possible for me to start the process for myself of something similar. And while not a GTO, it’s a model in the value range with similar amounts sold (slightly less), and these are similar things I’m thinking about and doing.

    While my posts are quoted, there’s a bit of a non sequitur as the debate seems to promoting the wisdom of hiring an expert. On that pint I agree, and currently I am doing that myself and researching each and every option. And in choosing who to consult, you are going slightly passed someone pointing out the obvious major things) chassis/engine numbers faked) but looking for advice on more difficult things, like someone with a relationship with the existing GTO owners and access and understanding of which might sell and for what price. At this level if you have your heart on a certain model, (which is who I’m taking about this applying to a certain very limited model like a GTO), what you are doing is weighing your options. And the first that’s what you are really doing is trying to understand whether you can generate more. You find out quickly you are in a position with few options and so you have to weigh the major ones.

    At least that’s my thoughts, from my perspective, and of course anyone is feee to disagree, or think differently in the position.


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  15. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    #87 johnhoughtaling, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    MiuraSV, don’t get me wrong about points you’ve made that are not my point. I am not at all criticizing or want to dampen your enthusiasm for researching and point out the smallest details. Last week I had a long lecture to the mechanic that keeps my collection about how he used the wrong hose clamps on a car I have. He suggested I “was nuts,” and then I dressed him down for using incorrect replacement nuts! These details are important to car guys. And it’s great to have people who love researching this stuff. Is the steering wheel wrong? The spare correct? Should the wheels be painted or chromed? Getting all the maintenance records for the file? Car guys love this stuff!

    If I was someone that was trying to get a GTO buyer to pay me to help them, and we are taking about what value that has, I’d concentrate on selling myself in ways that make me more valuable. Of course being able to research and know the size and kind of the hose clamps is good, being able to identify major things like is the chassis number faked is important, and there is a small fee for someone who does that. But to be truly valuable to the guy trying to buy the GTO, I would want to develop and sell that I have relationships with and knowledge of the existing collectors that have these cars and can be someone that can increase the options on the table.


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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #88 miurasv, Jun 27, 2018
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    It's not the way things are done to get the car looked over after you've bid on the car and won the auction. You have to do that before you bid if you're going to do it. Once the gavel goes down that car is legally yours and the funds have to be wired soon after the auction. It's also not practical to get a car inspected after the auction before you collect with all the cars being moved around etc plus a qualified inspector is not going to be able to do a thorough investigation without a ramp for example. And how are you going to get a GTO expert to inspect the car at very short notice before you pay for it? Even if the car was found to have an unrepairable cracked block that would not be grounds to not complete and pay for the car as the auction house has not stated that the block is not cracked, and as you agree, that would affect the value.
     
  17. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    Inspection is a good idea! It’s what I do too! Agree!


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  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    Bare in mind that all auction companies have you sign a bidders agreement that basically indemnifies them from any claim in regards to information or guarantees. They all declare that it is for the buyer to do due diligence on any lot (see Bonhams and RMs declarations below). That said the auction company frequently relies on the sellers and/or their mechanics description and the buyer and/or their mechanic might have a different perspective on a cars intrinsic qualities so they do need to indemnify themselves. That said like any other agency they do need to sell lots and you will find that IF you are a qualified buyer, in this case a known billionaire or clutching a letter of credit proving you can stump up $50 million you can be sure RM will find a suitable 3rd party mechanic such as Mike Sheehan or restoration shop to check the lot over. The same with test drives and other requests within reason. Any appropriate question would be answered to the extent that it can be known, they may not have any information as to who altered the spare wheel cover or a sundry light since the mods done in the UK during the 1960s may be undocumented but they would avail you of the mechanical status and what the component parts are made up of although this wouldn't necessarily be made public since you might need to sign a NDA. Returning to the legal bit for a second, I am certain that if you were a true big fish of an auction house (say Lesley Wexner at RM) you could write your own buyers contract just the same as any big fish seller likely has the ability to dictate terms, minimum returns etc.

    Bonhams
    9. Contract of Sale
    9.1
    On the acceptance of a bid by the fall of the Auctioneer’s hammer a
    contract of sale is made between the Seller and the Buyer. Except in cases
    where it is acting as
    selling principal, Bonhams is not a party to the contract of
    sale and shall not be liable for any breach or default thereof by either the Seller
    or the Buyer
    It then goes on to indemnify Bonhams and the seller from any complaint in regards to warranty or information so......

    RM has a similar
    THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF THIS SITE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS," AND RM AUCTIONS, INC. MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT OF ANY KIND WITH RESPECT TO THIS SITE OR ITS CONTENTS. NEITHER RM AUCTIONS, INC., NOR ANY OF ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, OR OTHER REPRESENTATIVES WILL BE LIABLE FOR DAMAGES OF ANY KIND ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OF THIS SITE OR ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.

    RM Auctions, Inc. assumes no responsibility, and shall not be liable for any damages to, or viruses that may infect your computer equipment or other property on account of your access to, use of, or browsing on the Site, or your downloading of any materials, data, text, images, video, or audio from the Site.
     
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  19. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Youse guys are funny. Do you seriously think anyone with $50MM+ is not going to do serious due diligence before buying anything? Don't matter whether it is a GTO or a Picasso. You don't have drunken fools running around bidding $50MM+.
     
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  20. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Very true.
     
  21. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Clearly you've missed why I posted what I have.
     
  22. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Sorry. I know John probably has the net worth to buy a car like this. I also know John is a pretty sharp guy. I'm guessing he can handle buying a GTO.
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I am totally in agreement with you. I would assume that anyone with the money and interest in #3413GT is likely to already know the car and its owner and if they still have any questions RM would be only happy to help answer them. They may or may not care about the minutae but then thats the buyers prerogative. Was just giving some colour to the discussion is all.
     
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  24. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I was just poking a little fun. I'm gonna guess this is very rarified air. There are multiple back-channel discussions before any auction.
     
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  25. 375+

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    A Mike Sheehan PPI that would be interesting.
     
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  26. miurasv

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  27. miurasv

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  28. Boudewijn

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