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1962 Ferrari 250 GTO, chassis #3413 To Be Auctioned In Monterey

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Rossocorsa1, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #26 miurasv, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    It's said in a number of publications that the nose was changed in 1965. It was owned then by Dan Margulies and David Piper, renowned for modifying cars, raced the car a couple of times in DM's ownership so perhaps he had something to do with the nose change? However, Anthony Pritchard said in his GTO book that the rectangular spotlights in the nose were removed and replaced with vertical brake cooling slots in 1965, probably before Corrado Ferlaino, who owned 3413GT between December, 1963 to 1965, sold the car. Perhaps the nose has been kept as is because the brake cooling slots are useful? Mind you the narrower radiator grille opening looks less effective for engine cooling?

    It was Corrado Ferlaino that arranged for the car to be rebodied by Scaglietti when he acquired the car.
     
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  3. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn F1 Rookie
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    Redex Trophy 1965 with David Piper

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  4. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Looks like the radiator grille opening has been narrowed and the edge of the nose flattened since the the brake cooling slots were added? See Cyril's pics in post 22 to compare.
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #29 miurasv, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Also part of the rad has been blanked off with a piece of Tate & Lyle cardboard as a solution to overcooling and they narrowed the opening later???
     
  6. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Haha, that's awesome!
     
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  8. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Cyril ('Aardy') is, certainly with respect to photo-documentation.
    The period photo shows narrow horizontal brake cooling holes below fog lights. The modern photo shows vertical brake cooling holes instead of the prior arrangement.
    The question will be whether this was changed as an adaptation 'an update' or during a collision repair.
    This is conflating two events. The front ends of S1 and S2 cars have absolutely nothing in common.
    What has changed in the photograph other than the lights and cooling detail mentioned above is this: the shape of the radiator opening is drastically different.
    As is, apparently, the crease/line in the sheet metal above it that forms the break between the horizontal and vertical aspects of the front end.
    Clearly what has happened is that at some point in history the front end has seen some collision damage and the original shape has not been faithfully executed in the restoration work.
    This is the work Aardy and Walter were remarking about.
    The original work was done by some of the great artisans to have ever practiced the craft.
    There are many fine, highly skilled persons working today capable of performing to a very high standard. Jobs like this require access to period photos and histories in order to get things absolutely correct
    Mies was right when he said, 'God is in the details'.

    Best Regards,
    Dave
     
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  9. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Well, one thing is for certain - whoever has the means to acquire this car will certainly have the ability to make the car correct.
     
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  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I wish overcooling was a problem with my 360. :)
     
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  11. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

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    Agreed. Let's hope they do! ;)
     
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  13. TurboTerrificNo9

    Sep 24, 2011
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    You’ve got to believe that the car has been underwritten so will sell on night at a level that guarantees it the record
     
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  14. malcolmjl

    malcolmjl Karting

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    I would guess the same. If they list $45 million then that's probably the guarantee. If RM ends up buying the car themselves at that price then that's a steal. I think the only question is what the final price will be. Are we taking bets? I'll place mine at $52,800,000 with buyers premium!
     
  15. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    I’m curious, why only $45,000,000 when the recent 250 GTO sale was for $70,000,000? Is it because it’s a series 2 body? I would have guessed series 2 bodies are more valuable. Forgive me, I’m just a fan not an expert.
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    In the rarified air of GTO's, any alteration from standard, even if by Ferrari (or an agent) themselves, is a negative, further it has a good (20 races, no DNFs or crashes) race history but the high value cars are the two that finished 2nd at Le Mans or won a big league race such as the Tour de France and didn't get destroyed in a crash afterwards. Finally there are the non intrinsic values such as the relative merits of the 1962/63 bodywork vs the 1964 bodywork and for many the classical looks of the original are worth a huge premium.

    #3851 had a relatively good race history (say C grade), had been fatally crashed and severely crashed again (E) and while it came from 50 years with one owner it needed an extensive restoration (D), so on average it was a D, perhaps a C at a pinch.
    #4153 won the Tour de France in '64 and finished 4th at Le Mans (A), was never seriously crashed (A), and had been owned by people that loved and cherished it in the best sense (A or B), so on average it a A.
    #3413 on the other hand has a good but not great race history, it finished 4th and 5th at the Targa Florio (B), it was said to have never crashed (A) and supposedly only rebodied to try and sell it (does anyone know if that is absolutely true?) and still it was rebodied (B - C depending on taste and perspective) and has had good ownership and must be in good nick to have completed the events it has (B). Overall its a B.

    So while #3851 was correctly priced at $35 mil and #4153 equally so at nearly $70 mil., #3413 should be worth somewhere in the middle and thats where RM have estimated it. Lets not forget private sale always wrings the last few % out of a buyer versus the public glare of an auction room as a general rule.

    Others may have different perspectives and I for one would welcome their input.
     
  17. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    Thank you. I’m trying to learn more about the vintage cars. Much appreciated.
     
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  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Well, for this money I expect a correctly restored car.
     
  19. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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    That’s a good point, however, if I was the next owner, I would want to be the one controlling that restoration project.
     
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  20. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Tim, how many potential buyers do you think are out there who would and could bid $40 million or more?
     
  21. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Rookie
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  22. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    #44 johnhoughtaling, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    3413 has good race history, never had a major crash, and so I’d say on par with 4153. It’s not like buyers have several to chose from on the lot. As even getting the chance to buy such a car is rare, this doesn’t have any real affect on value in my opinion.

    The real difference from 4153 is that many buyers would prefer a series 1, and this is an S2 (don’t think there is any demonstrable difference between cars originally an S2 and factory converted. Again it’s not like buyers have GTO choices on a car lot. ) The difference may be that I think most would prefer a S1. This is the biggest factor. That said it only takes 2 people who want it, and there are many well heeled people that do.

    The fact it’s a public auction may affect the price. Years ago this would be a gamble to sell such a car publicly. No so much anymore .

    I also find it significant in the general perception in the market. In 2002 when a lemans winner went for 1/10 the price this car will go for, the general public couldn’t believe a car could be worth so much. Now it’s common perception that a car can be worth this much. While the general public aren’t buyers it affects how people who are think bc the general acceptance of value gives a buyer some comfort of commonly perceived value. When 4153 was rumored to sell for (80M -even if it was 65?) people didn’t gasp. They called it the holy grail and MM’s comment of “they may be 100M” was often tagged. This is now a different market. And there’s the affect that it’s now seen commonly as a billionaire indicator. A GTO now tells people you are in the billionaires club. This matters for silly reasons and some rational ones.

    So will it go higher or lower is anyone’s bet. And while I think the odds are lower I could retrospectively explain it if it went higher.

    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  23. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    This sucks the air out of everyone else's Monterrey auctions.
     
  24. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    The sceptic in me wonders what the price actually paid for 4153 was? Marcel Massini confirmed that MacNeil himself told him he'd bought the car. Marcel said the price was under $70m which I assume is what MacNeil told him. Or he gave him an exact price? I have no doubt whatsoever that the conversation took place, the content of which justified Marcel's statement, with the ball park but inexact price. However we only have the word of MacNeil with no proof of what was paid. 3387, an important GTO being the first one raced to a class win by Hill and Gendebien no less, and second built, was heavily advertised for over a year by the leading GTO vendor, didn't sell at the asking price of $55m and is rumoured to have sold for considerably less after. The no sale of 3387 by the vendors in the year that they had it would have had a negative impact on the price of GTOs imo, which would have given MacNeil bargaining power to negotiate the asking price down of 4153 if higher, so why would he pay around $20 - $25m more, a massive amount of money?
     
  25. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    If I would be soooo blessed by owning a 250GTO and considering a sale of it, I would never ever give it to an auction company or dealer who advertise it for sale in magazines etc.! So in my humble opinion Kidston and Lucas Hüni/David Gooding did it right to sell a GTO privately - and the latter made it even better than Kidston as their deal became known when it was already done!
     
  26. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #48 miurasv, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    The "most valuable car ever offered for public sale" doesn't have the correct spare wheel and tyre in it. It has a 15" x 5.5" Borrani RW 3721 with a 5.00L x 15 tyre which are not for GTO. Wrong sizes.

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  27. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 Formula 3

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    Lots of interesting tidbits and opinions; thank you everyone for the interesting discussion.

    I've always gotten the impression that auctions were where the highest prices would be achieved - when egos and pride get hold of billionaires wallets, it's a powerful tool!

    I realize that venue isn't for everyone, and maybe there are certain types of cars in certain price brackets that do better, so maybe it comes down to individual circumstance. Or maybe I've just drank too much of the auction company kool-aid ;)

    I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this? Are you referring to the general acceptance of the public at large of the price level of these cars, giving those bidders less cause for reluctance?

    I'd think that the risk of a no-sale affecting the post-auction marketability of the car, would be a deterrent, but I guess that's where the behind-the-curtain guarantees come into play... It's always easier not to sell a car privately than risk the spectacle of a flat auction.


    Interesting... Are you saying Kidston was involved with the deal on 4153? Or just that a private broker sale would be your preferred avenue, as Kidston (and now Huni/Gooding) has done?

    I wonder what sort of efforts, if any, Gooding put into trying to get 4153 for his Pebble Beach sale...
     
  28. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    The current and previous owners won't have been eating Spam.
     
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