#10 fuse blows trying to start | FerrariChat

#10 fuse blows trying to start

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Gossimer, Mar 27, 2016.

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  1. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    My 1988 Mondial is not starting, Every time I put the key in and turn it before even starting the car, the #10 fuse blows (Fuse # 10 – 7.5A Fuel pump (start-up), cold start injector, thermo-time switch).

    Any ideas what is causing this and how to resolve the issue so I can get my Mondial back on the road? I have looked and searched the forums but have not been able to find a solution.
     
  2. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,884
    Sonoma, CA
    Ciuld it be a shirt of pump to car body? Have you checked that wiring. Stert there
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,144
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
    First, just unplug both the cold start injector and the thermo-time switch (and also inspect the local wiring going to both as you do that for a wire being pinched or shorted to a sharp edge). Then try cranking the starter and see if a fresh fuse #10 still blows (doesn't matter if the engine actually starts or not):

    If blows = not a good sign, and we don't want to go there...
    If not, then plug the thermo-time switch back in (with the cold start injector still unplugged) and try starting again:

    If blows = probably a bad thermo-time switch, but could still be in the wiring between the thermo-time switch and the cold start injector.
    If not, then plug the cold start injector back in and try starting again:

    If blows = bad cold start injector needs to be replaced.
    If not, the trouble has gone away ;)
     
  4. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    Wade O.
    #4 Wade, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    After Steve's steps...

    Take a look at the W connector on the fuse box as well. The ignition and fuel pump circuits go through that and are prone to failure.
     
  6. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    I unplug both the cold start injector and the thermo-time switch and inspected the wiring everything seems fine there, but even with both disconnected the fuse #10 still blows.

    Wade, what do you mean by the W connector on the fuse box?
     
  7. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    Also, I have the upgraded fuse panel from Scuderia Rampante if that helps
     
  8. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 31, 2006
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    East Central, FL
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    #8 Wade, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes, the one on the right side when looking forward.
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  9. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
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    Well, that really should eliminate the W connecter as a problem and possibly the fuse box as well.

    I installed one of those on my ex 88 3.2, huge improvement. However, I don't recall how it changes the circuitry off the top of my head.
     
  10. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    Steve, I know you said "If blows = not a good sign, and we don't want to go there...", but looks like we are going there, what are you thinking it could be?
     
  11. Jeka

    Jeka Formula 3
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    Nov 20, 2010
    1,176
    Rotterdam
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    If you have enough spare fuses it is possible to find the root cause by excluding all other possible causes. If you don't have enough fuses an resistance or multimeter is very handy.

    If you have enough spare fuses you can try to remove relays i, t and v.
    Try if the fuse blows.
    If not, reinstall relay v and try if the fuse blows.
    If not, reinstall relay t and try if the fuse blows.
    If not, reinstall relay i and try if the fuse blows.

    Depending on the results you can eliminate parts of the circuit as the cause and narrow down your search.
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    One high probability = a short on/in the PCB itself, or

    Low probability = a piece has broken off inside the ...101 starting relay or the ..113 fuel pump relay and it's shorting things out inside the relays - i.e. follow Johan's suggestion to remove the two relays related to the fuel pump operation (and when removed them give them a shake to hear if anything is rattling around inside), then see if fuse #10 stays intact with the starter motor cranking (the engine will definitely not start):

    If fuse #10 still blows with both relays removed = almost certainly something wrong with the PCB.
    If fuse #10 stay intact = reinstall them one at a time - starting relay first, then retest, then add the fuel pump relay next and retest. If one of them seems to cause the fuse blowing, you can always steal some of the same type from other functions as a test to see if it solves the problem

    Of course, removing and installing relays is a fairly violent act that gives the PCB a good shaking/wiggling so just doing that can affect such a fault.

    No, it probably doesn't. As Wade noted, that fix is for bypassing the flaky white connectors so that prevents the "fuel pump dead" symptom -- a "shorting" symptom is something else.
     
  13. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    Well thanks solved that problem, it was a bad relay v, replaced it and now fuse 10 does not blow, but still doesn't start.
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I should've read your original post more carefully (I wasn't getting that fuse #10 was blowing with just turning the key "on"). However, there's no fault at relay v that can cause fuse #10 to blow so that's more just a bad sign for the PCB and things have changed just because you wiggled things around.

    To go forward from here, I'd unplug the safety switch on the airflow metering plate near the fuel distributor and turn the key "on" = you should hear the fuel pump run -- do you?
     
  15. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    I can't seem to locate the safety switch, where is it located?
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 Steve Magnusson, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  17. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    Thanks couldn't even see it there, but I found it and disconnected it and turn the key and cannot hear the fuel pump. However this test also identified the problem with the relay, with the new relay the fuel pump did not run, but when I replace it with the old you can hear the fuel pump run, but then disconnected the safety and the fuel pump did not run. I left the fuse out of #10 so it wouldn't blow since the fuel pump was running before the safety switch was disconnected.
     
  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,144
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    You lost me here, but once you get the fuel pump running with just the key "on" (however you can), just try starting the engine.
     
  19. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    The only way I can get the fuel pump to run is to not put a fuse in fuse #10, but the car still does not start. If I put the fuse in #10 the fuse blows, basically back where we started just have more info now.

    Changing relay v only stopped the fuse #10 from blowing but then the fuel pump does not run.
     
  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #20 Steve Magnusson, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
    Don't like the sound of any of that. Have you tried using a different ...101 relay for the starting relay and a different ...113 relay for the fuel pump relay?

    The relays in question are in the same physical positions for euro vs US, but they are named differently in the documentation:

    Euro version (as per the pdf Wade posted)
    relay i = starting relay (top row, far right)
    relay t = fuel pump relay (middle row, far right)
    relay v = key services (bottom row, far right)

    US version (as in the US OM)
    relay S = starting relay (top row, far right)
    relay R = fuel pump relay (middle row, far right)
    relay U = key services (bottom row, far right)
     
  21. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    #21 Gossimer, Mar 28, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2016
    Yes, I tried using different 101 and 113 relays, but same issue, the #10 fuse blows. With the relay identifications I know it is different in my US version, but they are the same relays so I thought it didn't matter.

    But, the problem persists, car will not start and #10 fuse blows every time you turn the key even before trying to start.

    Any other ideas?

    Also, I see in the wiring diagram Wade posted, fuse #10 is called cold start electro-valve, not sure if that makes a difference.
     
  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
    25,144
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    No, not really, but that (unusual) symptom still seems like something on/in the PCB itself being amiss.

    No difference. The cold start injector = the cold start electro-valve in F-speak.
     
  23. Gossimer

    Gossimer Rookie

    May 5, 2013
    42
    Melbourne, FL
    Does anyone else have any suggestions or ideas on what could be causing the Fuse 10 to blow? Any help or suggestions are appreciated.
     
  24. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    Where's your car located? Sounds like it needs some extensive troubleshooting.

    Have you considered Tim Stanford? He knows these cars inside out and he's just a bit south in Fort Lauderdale. You can bring the car to him. My friend takes his Mondial Cab there for service and such.

    Tim's number
    954-764-7824
     
  25. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    #25 Wade, Mar 31, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Can you post the VIN for your car?

    The US Spec Owners Manual for the 88 Mondial shows fuse #10 as the "L.H. main beam and relevant warning light"
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