0858 to be auctioned

Preview on Saturday.
Photos: Cris Bertschi.
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Nice paint, but as someone who has been around the block a couple of times, I'd like to see pictures of the chassis while it was up on a lift...

 

What a mess, this thread got mixed with the bidding thread.

 

It seem's I had heard these words recently ...
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Merci Beaucoup por toutes les images fantastique!

 

Sicilian Mobster? Corsa Nostra? That blue bag might be a "hit bag".

 

Yes she would as long as the "restoration" was done at the hospital where she was born and then she would only receive a Class 2 certificate. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Why yes of course as long as the "restoration" was done at the hospital where she was born but then she would only get a Class 2 certification. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Correct but note that this Man of Honor has his hands resting on the bag in Peace. If the position of his hands was reversed with his right hand under the flap inside the bag the time to remember the Sicilian Proverb would be at hand.

"He who is deaf and blind will live a peaceful 100 years..."

 

Some are happy with Class 2 Women. Some perfer Class 1 ones...

 

....LOL!
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Neither the car nor the girl are old enough for Vintage, Big Tex

 

willing to bet the car handles the mileage better......

 

Looking at the pictures of the car at the auction I do wonder how many hours RM spent cleaning and detailing....its may not be a P4 but the body style is certainly gorgeous in its own right.

 

I'll take a georgous Class 2 anything over a class 1 remake. Sorry just couldn't resist. How long do you want to keep this up? Remember it's really just for fun. just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

Kewl.

 

Hello Jim,
I believe the wheelbase still measures 2400mm on the 350 P4 Canams. When they cut down and shortened the rear bonnet it looks as if the wheelbase is shorter but I believe its an illusion. From what I have read nothing was done to the wheelbase. I could be wrong but if someone could measure it that would completely clear that up.

As to the discussion whether or not this is a P4 it must be noted that all references (at least that I have seen and read) refer to these cars as 350 "P4" Can Ams. If 0858 was to be restored to an earlier P4 configuration it would be as you refer to your car, being, it is what it is. You can call it a replica body or whatever but the car was originally a P4 and I would see nothing wrong with bringing it back to what it originally was and I know many people would agree. And really it doesn't matter anyway. The time line is there. Everybody knows what the car was and where its been. I like the Can Am body and I hope it remains that way. However, its still a P4. P4 Can am, but still a P4. I don't feel that can be taken away from this car. No matter, this car is important which I think everyone will agree regardless of configuration.

The P3 Can Am car (is that chassis 0844?) was referred to as a 330 P3 Can Am when it raced at Bridgehampton. I don't believe they even enlarged the motor for that car when it raced. I think they essentially just rebodied the car.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

Think of it in another way.

For argument's sake, let's say that the wheelbase is equal, and the modifications to the frame easily reversed.

Then you're missing 2 major components: an engine and a body.

I'm sure the engine can be brought back to its' smaller capacity. fine.

A replica body can be made. Fine.

The first time you take it to an event: Everybody will ONLY point out that the car was the 350 Can Am and that it is now more replica than original.

Doesn't seem like fun to me.

And along the way you have killed a beautiful piece of Ferrari history.

 

I might have missed the answer in an earlier post, but is the engine for 0858 out there somewhere? I realize that in racing 40 years ago the engines might have been discarded when a different class or series required a tranformation of the car. Did the engine end up in another car?

 

Ed

The wheel base is longer not shorter. Look at the photograph. The rear wheel is no longer in the center of the wheel well. That modification, unlike the wheel base change in 0846, did not involve a chassis modification, it involved a suspension modification/adjustment so it could be restored easily. You can't restore a 350 Can Am Engine that's stamped as a 350 Can Am engine back into a P4 engine without sleeving it and restamping it among other things. You could replace the block with a new Classiche one which would of course be so stamped. The chassis has been modified. This modification was done in the day by Ferrari. You could remake those modifications today and to fit a Replica P4 body you'd have to change at least one of the chassis tubes and replicate new ones to build the windshield and roof section and remove the 350 Roll Bar.

The point remains, today 0858 is a wonderful very original 350 Can Am. It's no longer an original 330 P4. Some care about things like that some don't. All is good and everyone makes themselves happy but things are what they are and IMO there is a difference between me removing an incorrect spyder body from 0854 and restoring her original coupe body and a present day reconverting 0858 into a P4 using a replica body and engine block among other things.

Best

 

Hello Jim,
The wheelbase looks longer but isn't. I have looked at MANY photographs, just about everything that was ever published and then some. In fact I will post some for comparison. The wheelbase looks longer because of the shortened rear bodywork which altered the rear of the wheelwell and brought it inward. The rear wheelwells were modified not the wheelbase. Thats why it looks out of center but the distance between the rocker panel and the rear wheel is the same. That part of the body is not modified and is what you should look at for comparison. As for other chassis mods, that is something I was not aware of. I didn't know they made other mods. I agreee its not a 330 P4, but I still see it as a 350 P4 Can am, not 350 Can Am. It deserves the P4 designation.

Anyone on here or elsewhere that knows me, knows I appreciate originality. Any change takes away from originality, but no necessarily correctness. I agree that correcting a body such as on 0854 is different than what would occur if 0858 were to be changed from its current configuration. I just feel its still a P4 and very much part of the history of those wonderful cars.

I am suprised Ferrari went and did so many changes but didn't go all the way to make it competitive.

Hopefully these pics will show up.
They may not be the same chassis numbers but they will illustrate the dimensions fairly well.
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Ed

The only way to know is to measure it. I'll give you a hint. What happens if you adjust the rods locating the rear uprights? What happens to the angle of the rear half shafts back to front? What happens to the wheel base? The P3 wheelbase was 12MM different from the P 4 Wheelbase. The Technical Data sheets said they were and I conformed they were by measurement. My 0846 pdf. shows how that was accomplished and it did involve modifying the chassis. I also looked at the wheelbase of 0858 and the adjustment of the rear upright and the angle of the rear half shaft front to rear. To my eye the rear upright looked pushed to the rear vs P4 and the wheelbase looked longer. I asked for a ruler but one never showed up. As I've said this change is totally restorable.

Let's take 1010 for example. If you owned it would you advertise it for sale as a 512S? If you bought it would you "Reconvert it" to a 512S keeping in mind when Mr. Ferrari originally converted it he personally went to it's first race outing to see how it would do as a 712 Can Am? IMO this one is a 712 Can Am. It's no longer a 512S.

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/1010.712canam.htm



Best

 

No right or wrong here. The provenance of 1010 is more appealing as the SF 512S.

What about 1040? Ferrari built it as a 512S and was campaigned by Jim Adams. In 1970/71 Penske fabricated an entirely bespoke tub, and Traco proceeded to build a 12 cylinder NASCAR motor to create the Sunoco Ferrari. The glass panels were custom as well. Homologation? Me neither.

Clearly no one wants Chris Cord's version.

 

Hello Jim,
Thats a very good point about the 712. Personally I like the Can Am cars. I would not change the 712 or 0858. Its a great piece of history.
I knew 0846 was slightly shorter, as were all the P3's. I never considered that a P4's wheelbase could ever be adjusted. I just assumed these stayed as they were made. Since 0846 started as a P3 and was then updated with P4 parts to become the P3/4 I expected it to have the shorter wheelbase. I figured it was not such an easy or worthwhile modification for the factory to make so they left it as it was.

If you are correct and the P4 Can Ams did have adjusted the wheelbase longer then 2400 then I am very curious as to how much. Nothing I have read even mentions it. But most books only really gloss over the Can Am years. It is clear they changed the body work and closed up the size of the rear wheelwell opening. That could definitely trick the eye. But then again its not so easy to tell from 40 year old pics.

Hopefully someone can get some measurements.

Ed

 

Hi

P 3 wheelbases were 12MM Longer 2412MM vs P 4 wheelbase of 2400MM. When 0846 was modified by Ferrari to a P 3/4 it's wheelbase was shortened by modifying the chassis to P4 specifications. (See 0846 pdf.)

Best