430 - The door locks only once | FerrariChat

430 The door locks only once

Discussion in '360/430' started by Stuz, Jun 14, 2021.

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  1. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI
    Hallo!

    I have a problem with the door lock in my F430.
    It looks like a unusual case.
    Please help me.

    First of all, I'm Japanese and not good at English.
    So it may be strange English.
    Please tell me if you wonder what I writing.
    I'll write it in another word.

    I have a 2007 F430 F1 LHD.

    Problems are:
    1. I can lock the door by fob after opening and closing the door for the first time since drive and turn off the engine.
    BUT, door cannot be locked after the door is opened and closed for the second time and thereafter.
    It tryed to lock but unlocked immediately.
    2. From the locked state, unlocking by fob and opening the door, then I close the door and try to lock again by fob without starting the engine, but the door will not be locked.
    It tryed to lock but unlocked immediately.
    3. Regardless of whether door is locked or not, pressing the button of fob activates/cancels the alarm.
    4. The inside lock switch on the inner door handle can lock the door without problems no matter how many times the door is opened.


    I turned off the kill switch and left it overnight, but the situation did not change.
    I checked the door lock cable, and the passenger/right side outer cable was stuck a little, so I cleaned all of cables to make it move smoothly, but situation did not change.

    Another thing I noticed is:
    If I pull the outer handles in the locked state, the window will go down a little. The door remains locked and does not open.
    It happens each side.

    Cables move smooth, it can be locked normally once after aurn off engine, and it also can be locked normally from the inside, so I think that the problem is not the door lock actuator.
    Where should I check next?

    Thanks much.
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    心配しないで... Your English is clear. However, the problem sounds very unusual. Unfortunately, the Owners Manual and Workshop Manual have very limited information on lock operation.

    Do the doors also lock from the outside with the metal door key (after the problem starts)?
     
  3. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    When you open and close the door a second time and try to lock the door, does the alarm LED flash normally to show the alarm is active? If so, does the siren activate when you open the door?
     
  4. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI
    Dear.Qavion

    Thank you for your replying.

    I tried to turn the key in the key cylinder right direction, but after turning and locking it, it was pushed back in the opposite direction and unlocked.

    When I press the button of fob, it locks once and unlocks immediately, and the alarm is activated at the same time.
    If I pull the outer door handle in that state, the window will go down a little and the alarm will sound as soon as the door opens.
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    I think the locking of the doors using the button on the inside of the door is a green coloured one in the foot well, this i think is working ok. Does the handbook show a relay for locking / unlocking the doors from the outside, this would get its signal from the key fob. It is possible this is sticking and you may be able to find another relay the same part number to swap it with.
    Your english is a lot better than my Japanese. !!!!!
     
  6. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    I only have the wiring schematics for the F430 Scuderia (and there are differences between the Scud and the standard F430), but looking at the Scud wiring schematics, the Alarm ECU in the footwell has an antenna, so the fob must be talking directly to this. The schematic for the Immobiliser ECU doesn't appear to show an antenna, so perhaps the fob communicates with the Immobiliser ECU via the Alarm ECU (but I haven't found a link yet).

    There are no relays, just direct wiring between sensors in the door and the Alarm and Window ECUs. When you use the fob, the Alarm ECU sends a signal to the Window ECU which then talks to the Doorlock ECU to activate the lock actuators.

    We need to figure out what sensor signals are sent to the Alarm ECU and Window ECU. e.g. The sensor on the inner door lock lever may not send a signal to one of these ECUs, hence the correct operation at all times using the inner door lock lever.

    Anyway, 1am here... Time for bed
     
  7. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI
    Dear.mike32

    Thank you for telling possibility.

    I didn't check the relay, because it can be locked once just after the engine was turned off.
    Is it possible that it works normally only once and does not work after the second time?

    In any case, I will find the location of relay in the owner's manual and check it.
    How do I know if the relay is broken?
     
  8. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI

    I don't know if it's related, but when I read your reply, I remembered one more thing.

    Just only once, but alarm was activated while I was driving, after the door lock was broke.
    The siren turned on while car is moving, so I pressed the button of fob in key cylinder, then the siren stopped.

    Thank you help me up late at night.
     
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  9. Sj_engr

    Sj_engr Formula 3

    Sep 15, 2020
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    Sounds like an issue with the door micro switches.
     
  10. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI
    Dear.Sj_engr

    Thanks your opinion.

    I think that the microswitches on the inside/outside handles on each sides are probably unbroken, because the window will drop if I pull it a little so that the door won't open.

    If I press the micro switch of the A pillar by hand, the courtesy lamp will turn off, so it is probably not broken, too.

    Is the correct way to check if the microswitch is broken?

    Or are there other microswitches?
     
  11. Sj_engr

    Sj_engr Formula 3

    Sep 15, 2020
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    After the first lock does the car stay locked for days? It seems to me one of the micro switches is giving a false signal. Does the car honk if you try and lock the car with the front trunk open?
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #12 Qavion, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    I think there are about 8 active microswitches for each door. These doors are crazy complicated!

    3 on the (key) lock. Only two are used.
    2 on the interior door handle (opening lever and locking/unlocking lever)
    2 in the latch-lock module (one for the lock actuator position and one to perhaps sense that the door is latched closed)
    1 window position microswitch
    1 on the door hinge
     
  13. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    @TSUZUKI さん....

    Could there be a faulty timing circuit in, say, the Window ECU? If you turn off the engine and close the door, then wait (for example) 3 minutes and then lock the car, will the car lock?
     
  14. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    It stayed locked until I pressed the button of fob again.
    Also, when I locked car with front trunk open, I heard a short beep. This is the same as before the door lock went wrong.
     
  15. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    There were so many switches!
    Some of them have not been checked.

    2 on the interior door handle may be working properly, because the window goes down when I try to open the door and it can be locked from the inside.
    Also, 1 on the door hinge is probably not broken because I press the micro switch of the by hand, the courtesy lamp will turn off.

    Where is the 1 window position microswitch? Also, how can I find out if it's broken?

    Does "'3 on the (key) lock. Only two are used."' means that the switch that connects to the key cylinder and the switch that connects to the outer door handle ?
    The switch connected to the handle is probably not broken because the window goes down when I pull the handle.
    How can I find out if the switch connected to the key cylinder is broken?

    I couldn't check 2 in the latch-lock module because the screw of the actuator was too hard to remove the module.
    Can I check if it's broken without removing it?
     
  16. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    I didn't try it.
    I'm far from the parking lot, so I'll check it the next time I can go to the parking lot. Probably this Friday.

    Don't forget me until I try it.
     
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  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    @TSUZUKI さん....

    I don't have a complete wiring diagram for the F430 door so I don't know how many of the switches are connected. Even the Ferrari wiring diagrams don't tell you everything.

    The parts manual may give a rough location, but you can check this switch by disconnecting the main door connector and checking between pins 8 & 14.

    Diagram here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/nvYzuOpxQp1hBJG6

    Please note that the connector has unusual pin numbering.

    I believe the switch should change state (open/closed) when the window drops (when you start to open the door).

    Note that this diagram is an unconfirmed diagram for the 430 Scuderia. The Scuderia does not have a lock lever on the door handle. The doorlock switch is on the centre console on a Scuderia.

    I know very little about the key cylinder switches. I don't know if they are activated at the same position. I don't know if some are "normally open" or "normally closed".

    You can see the 3 microswitches in this photo

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/JU3y1xW0v5udvcSB

    It's difficult to check these switches at the main door connector because the switch is sometimes in parallel with another switch. It depends on the Ferrari model. The cylinder seems to have cams on it. These may trigger the switches at different times. Only two of these switches should be connected to the car's wiring.

    You could check the doorlatch open switch (M004/B)at the main door connector. Pins 2 and 3. Again, I don't know if the switch is normally open or normally closed. Perhaps you could simulate opening and closing the door (with the door fully open). e.g. force the latch closed with a screwdriver?
    It might be difficult to check the lock actuator switch with the door open... especially because your door is not operating properly.

    Anyway, do that 3 minute check to see if anything different happens. It may or may not guide us in the right direction.

    頑張ってね :D
     
  18. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

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    Thanks a lot.
    The document you gave me was a great help to my understanding.

    I think that normally, the left and right sides do not break at the same time, so I will compare the each sides to find a broken switches.

    Can the main door connector be disconnect by simply pulling it?
    Or is there any tips to disconnect?
     
  19. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    Ratarrosa has a video regarding door lock issues on Ferraris.
    Maybe the video can provide some clue?
     
  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #20 Qavion, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
    I recall reading a procedure somewhere, but can't recall the details. It may not be intuitive. I tried to remove the door connector on my F355, but couldn't due to limited space. The door has to be wide open. Look for hidden screws. Similar looking connectors sometimes have to be unhooked (rotated) to remove them, but I'm not sure about the door connector.

    I've been trying to understand the automatic window operation described in the manuals.

    "The whole (window) system is powered automatically in the following cases:

    a. if the door is locked, the ignition key has been extracted and the door closed:
    b. if the (internal/external) door handle is pulled when the ignition key has been extracted and the door closed

    Specifically in case (situation) "a.", the system will be disabled 3 minutes after activating the lock control, whereas it will remain active for about 3 minutes after activating the release (unlock?) control."

    I don't understand the meaning of that sentence. "Whereas" infers that there is a difference.

    Use the "eye" symbol on the Dropbox link to preview the diagrams. The diagrams can be converted to pdf files by pushing the PRINT button a few times.

    The text continues....

    "Case b. occurs even when the doors are locked: by operating the on the external handle, the system is powered for 3 minutes without moving the window".

    Clearly, the window should not move on your car in case "b", but I'm still not sure if this is a computer problem or one of the microswitches is telling the computers that the door is not locked.

    Here's another video on doors, but I realise that you may have trouble understanding spoken English.



    Here is a very complicated diagram for the Scuderia door and window system (not including the doors) that I have been developing. It probably won't be helpful to you though.

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/zU4s8FZ6Ngdx2ltl

    As I said previously, the wiring will be different in some cases (especially the door lock controls).

    Here's a simplified diagram of the Window/Doorlock system from the F360 manual:

    https://www.dropbox.com/t/Ir5jDuSwUoXd4kc4

    There will be some similarities to the F430, but the switch numbering is different.

    Use the eye symbol on the Dropbox link to preview the diagrams. Also, you can push the PRINT button twice to convert the diagrams to pdf format.
     
  21. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    Dear.mello

    Thank you for introducing the video.

    That video is one of the videos I watched to find out how to do it before cleaning the cables at first.

    There may be new discoveries after actually work on my own, so I will watch it again.
     
  22. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    T.SUZUKI
    Thank you.
    I will try pulling door connector for the time being.

    I could roughly understand what the video was saying.
    I was able to see the diagrams you sent, too. It's a little complicated to understand immediately, so I'll read it slowly later.
     
  23. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

    Jun 1, 2021
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    I happened to get some time today, so I went to the garage.

    I went there for the first time in 5 days, but the car remained locked.
    When I pressed the button of fob, it was unlocked and the left window went down a little. (I remembered that after the door lock went wrong, when I pressed the button of fob to unlock, only the left window came down a little.)

    Five minutes after I started and turned off the engine, I pressed the button of fob and the door was locked and unlocked immediately.

    I also opened and closed door without starting the engine, waited 5 minutes, and then pressed the button to lock it and unlock it immediately.

    I started and turned off, then pressed the button, the door was locked.

    I didn't have enough tools today, so I'll check the connectors and microswitches tomorrow.
    It seems that it takes some ingenuity to remove the door connector.
     
  24. Sj_engr

    Sj_engr Formula 3

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    Have you had any thought to look into the battery of the siren? Mine were toast and I had to swap them. I was having weird behavior of the alarm where it would work sometimes and other times it would honk at me when locking and do the lock/unlock.
     
  25. Stuz

    Stuz Rookie

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    I have never checked the siren battery.

    My car is f430, will the siren break as well as the 360?
    It is a famous part in 360, but I heard that it uses a different part from f430.

    And how did you realize that the cause was a siren?
     

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