Lazy start with warm engine? | FerrariChat

Lazy start with warm engine?

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by astrotheide, Jun 7, 2021.

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  1. astrotheide

    astrotheide Karting

    May 3, 2017
    58
    Tampa, FL
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Evening everyone, just took delivery of a 2014 f12 with about 9k miles on the clock about a month ago.

    I stopped for gas the other day and my engine had a hard time starting / turning over to the point where the windows rolled down as if the doors were opened and it threw a few codes.

    I turned off the car, removed the key, and attempted to restart and it turned right on.

    I discovered this issue about a month ago and it’s been at the dealer for 3 weeks getting a new starter harness (or cable), a new starter motor, and a brand new battery.

    Problem is still persisting and to be honest I’m afraid to drive my new car because I have a fear that I’m going to get stuck or break something.

    Looking to see if anyone else has ever had this issue and if so, what solves it.

    Thanks in advance!


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  2. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2006
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    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    Been there done that, exact same story. I don’t have specific advice, since I’m not sure it was completely resolved despite new starter, new starting system wiring harness, and 3 new batteries in 4 years.
    One theory is that the battery is getting too hot, which reduces its cranking power. If I kept the car I was going to have a heat shield made to encircle the battery somehow.
    Good luck.


    Thoroughly discussed here:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f12-berlinetta-starting-problem.532964/
     
  3. otakki

    otakki Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2016
    1,623
    Ferrari should have positioned front-engine car's battery to the trunk.
     
  4. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Are you leaving 20 seconds in between turn the ignition on and starting the car?
     
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  5. Jerry Jones

    Jerry Jones Rookie

    Sep 25, 2011
    6
    Austin Tx
    Where does 20 seconds come from. Haven't heard that before.
     
  6. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    With all newish cars, turn the ignition on, wait 20 seconds for the car to do its checks then you can start the car. If you start it too soon all sorts of things can happen. I parked in front of the Ritz in London, the valet started the too soon, the brakes locked on and loads of failure warning lights came on. He restarted it after I explained and all was good.
     
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  7. Jerry Jones

    Jerry Jones Rookie

    Sep 25, 2011
    6
    Austin Tx
    Thanks. Has that avoided the warm engine re start problem for ypu?
     
  8. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    May 21, 2006
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    I'd check the battery voltage. As mentioned, heat tends to negatively affect batteries.

    I'd also look into switching to a Lithium battery, such as the Braille batteries, which outputs slightly higher voltage levels and generally functions better across the board. Search the 458 forum for "'braille i48cs" and you'll find a lot of info.

    Ray
     
  9. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Warm engine or cold, just something to remember evey time on start up.
     
  10. sylviewilson1

    sylviewilson1 Rookie

    Jun 9, 2021
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    Sylvie Wilson
    how did you know this?
     
  11. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Dealer told me years ago, when I bought my first F12.
     
  12. Jerry Jones

    Jerry Jones Rookie

    Sep 25, 2011
    6
    Austin Tx
    Wheels. Have you ever had a start problem? If so has the 20 second process avoided the lazy start problem
     
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  13. Bobby_P

    Bobby_P Karting

    Feb 25, 2004
    135
    This thread is really making me look forward to having my 2017 F12 delivered in the next couple of days...you know...in 110 degree heat and all. :)
     
  14. colonels

    colonels Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2011
    807
    my 2016 F12 also has these warm start issues but has never thrown fault codes. it just cranks VERY slow after restarting from under 30 minutes of sitting while hot. After 30 minutes does not seem to produce the same lazy cranking which leads me to believe it must be heat related. It has never done this on a cold start in the mornings.

    the heat soak could be battery or any of the wiring harness that directly connects battery to starter motor. ask mechanic to check all connections there and verify that none of the harness shielding is damaged (such as someone splicing into it for laser/radar.) the battery in the F12 is actually wrapped in a silver blanket heatshield i would also check that it is intact.

    the thread referenced states there "may" be an upgraded starter wiring harness with thicker shielding on the wires. i have yet to get a part number. if you find one please post it.
     
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  15. colonels

    colonels Formula Junior

    Aug 5, 2011
    807
    i am going to start testing this by driving it hard then stopping and popping the hood for 5 min and then see if it does a lazy start. you should also try and narrow down the conditions causing the lazy start by eliminating variables such as AC on/off, open hood to release heat, waiting 20 sec which i tried but didn't help, etc.
     
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  16. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    Mar 28, 2011
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    Would also be consistent with a weak battery where the electrolyte is getting weakened by the mixing of contaminates due to motion of the car. As it settles the contamination lessens and the battery is stronger.

    Bleeding off extra heat is a good experiment too.

    SV
     
  17. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    Hopefully some place nice.
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    A.B
    Seen this ob the FF. It was the battery. The hotter it got, the worse it got.
    Yes, I know they replaced the battery, but unfortunately Ferrari makes uses some of, if not the worst batteries on the market.

    The Braille lithium is a great battery, but it is also very expensive. There are two cheaper alternatives.
    1. Get a Braille B10049 AGM battery. By far the strongest AGM battery on the market. It also floats at over 13.2 volts.
    2. Get the AntiGravity 80 amp H8 battery. So far I have nothing but praise. And its built-in booster feature is really cool.

    Both the F12 and FF really cook the battery and those lead-acid batteries used in the FF and F12 do not like heat.

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  18. F12lover

    F12lover Karting
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    Oct 17, 2016
    113
    Highly likely it is the battery. I experienced the same issue whenever car was not. Worried it was a starter issue but new battery solved the problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. nguyennhatquang

    nguyennhatquang Karting

    Feb 13, 2016
    168
    Hanoi
  20. astrotheide

    astrotheide Karting

    May 3, 2017
    58
    Tampa, FL
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    Andrew
    Never heard that before but I’ll give it a try and see what happens!

    I noticed today when driving that if I drive it so that the engine cools down before I turn it off it starts right up no issues (about 175~°)


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  21. astrotheide

    astrotheide Karting

    May 3, 2017
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    Andrew
    Appreciate the feedback.

    Just got a new battery about two weeks ago, I’ll do some research and search for that battery!


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  22. astrotheide

    astrotheide Karting

    May 3, 2017
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    Andrew
    Not gonna lie to you, the car is wicked fast and beyond fun.

    10/10 in the month I’ve owned the car even with the starting issues!


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  23. astrotheide

    astrotheide Karting

    May 3, 2017
    58
    Tampa, FL
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    Andrew
    It’s when I drive slow and the engine heats up.

    If I watch the engine it’s interesting. If I’m like sitting in traffic to pull into a parking garage the temp goes up to 200°~ and then if I turn it off I have the lazy start.

    If I drive it and then turn it off with the engine around 175-180 I have zero issues restarting.


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  24. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
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    #24 RayJohns, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
    Here's a thought...

    On my '90 Toyota pickup truck, I converted it over to an electrical fan from the factory mechanical one; even used a Spal fan, which I believe is the same brand Ferrari uses for their cars. Anyway, the fan draws quite a bit of amps as I recall (I remember I wired it through a 40 amp circuit). On my truck, I only have one fan, but I would imagine an F12 would have at least two.

    With my truck, I have things setup so that the fan kicks on around 195 degrees (which usually only happens when sitting in traffic or perhaps waiting in line at a drive through). When the fan kicks on, it drops the oil temp from around 200 down to more like 140 in maybe 20-30 seconds or so - then the entire process starts over as the car sits and the temp starts to slowly creep up to ~200 again.

    If I pull into a parking garage and the temp is up near 190 or 200, where the fan would come on, I always wait and let it run its cycle before turning the motor off. If I were to turn the truck off, then attempt to restart it again right away, the fan would kick on during the starting process - which would put a larger than average load on my lithium G30 battery. I've never tried doing that, but I would imagine the stater might crank a bit slower if I still was running a traditional battery instead of the lithium type (which can supply current more freely and rapidly).

    On your F12 there, I'm wondering if what's happening is when you start the car right away, the temp is still hot enough to kick on the fan(s) and thus you're running the starter while the fans are also drawing away a lot of current. If this were the case - and your current battery is not brand spanking new - it might simulate running the starter with a very weak battery I think, due to the additional high current draw from those fans coming on.

    I don't know your history with owning Ferraris, but around the time when the 458 and F12 were introduced, I feel like the complexity and electrical demands of Ferrari's cars sort of exceeded the level at which your average AGM automotive battery can comfortably function and properly do its job. This is why using the factory battery tender suddenly went from being optional to more or less mandatory basically. This is also why - starting with my 458 - I eventually switched over to using only the Braille i48CS in my cars - frankly, anything short of that is so marginal in its ability to power modern Ferraris that you just tend to end up with all sorts of bizarre electrical issues cropping up. I'm wondering if this lazy starting issue is related.

    Speaking of which, are you able to hear if the fans are running when starting the car?

    Anyway, just a thought.

    The other thing I would suggest is flip the gauge screen on the left over to the volt meter and watch to see how far down the voltage dips when starting cold vs. hot. Ideally, attaching a digital volt meter or oscilloscope to the battery itself would be best, but Ferrari's gauge monitors the voltage 'accurately enough' to be able to show you if there is a noticeable voltage drop during starting as well.

    I would also measure the health of your battery, just in general, using a digital volt meter prior to starting the car (or get yourself a digital cigarette lighter type volt meter from Amazon and you can use that as well). A healthy battery should have around 12.75 volts at rest. Anything much below 12.50 is cause for alarm or at least concern.

    Ray
     
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  25. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
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    A.B
    That's a good observation Ray, however I'm not sure the draw is the issue.

    I've done some experiments with this in the past when I had to run some big single and dual fan setups on muscle cars I converted to electric fan and electric water pump. You are correct about the fans needing a 30-40 amp relay depending on the fan, but that is only during the startup.
    I had some big 3000+ CFM fans that each demanded 40 amps on startup, but once running, they dropped below 10 amps. The relay needs to be able to handle the surge during the spool-up, but as the rpm goes up, the amps drop again.

    But still, you bring up a good point never the less, which is to let the car sit at idle and cool for a bit, before switching it off. The FF, F12, 812 and Lusso really cook in that engine compartment - so much so that I cannot remember any other car I've been in that had such a high temp under the bonnet. Thank god for cold air intakes because if the engine was feeding off that hot air, it would be waaaaay down on power.

    Now back to one thing again which we need to keep in mind. Many of us don't experience this issue, so we cannot consider it normal. So the way I see it, doing things to remedy the situation by letting the car idle etc. is just a bandaid. It should not do what it does and it is not normal.

    I stick to my theory of a bad battery even though it's new.

    AntiGravity H8 80Ah
    Braille B10049
    Braille I49CS

    I'd do one of the above.
     
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