Hi Folks, I have been lurking on the site since I bought my 1980 308 GTBI about 7 years ago. Bought the car without test driving it, or ever hearing the motor run with 24K miles on the clock. The sellers reason for not running the car was it was past due for belt change. I thought I would get that all done right away, but one thing led to another and didn't get to it and my 308 has sat as a museum piece in my garage since as an unknown quantity. Most likely it has sat for 10 years in total without running. 1) I have read through quite a few articles on the site, and have acquired all the parts I need to get things going in theory. 2) I have removed everything needed to perform the timing belt change. Next step is to line up the marks. 3) I purchased a new water pump and Thermostat which will also be done while the belt change is in progress 4) Purchased a new alternator as a while your in there item 5) I may just remove the AC compressor altogether for now as I can't believe it is still charged and my primary goal is to get the car running. If someone knows how I can tell if the system is charged by some visual, please let me know. Restoring the A/C will come down the road. 6) The radiator is removed and going off for repair as there are some tell tale signs it was leaking a bit. Should be completed by next week 7) The diaper I pulled off last year and sent to a shop for repair and that is coming back next week 8) Four new XWX tires ready to be mounted 9) Suspension looks in decent order along with the brakes, but that will be flushed with new fluid 10) Fuel system is a bit of worry, but will drain and rinse with new gas several times 11) My biggest worry was finding out of I had bought a destroyed engine. Now that I have the timing belt covers off, the old belts look fine. I can turn the engine with my 36MM balancer socket and everything seems to be operating smoothly, with no noises at all. Cams are turning and big sigh of relief the engine was not seized from sitting. Yes, there is compression, but I can overcome it with my socket wrench enough to spin it without the plugs out. (I do have new plugs for it along with oil filter, air filter etc.) The post here is requesting a volunteer/volunteers who have done the belt change and water pump before to come help as it is my first time, and I would love a mentor to walk me through. All the hard work is out of the way. I don't have a cam lock though, so hoping someone has one. If not I will build one this week. Hoping to get the belt change done and car running before Memorial day. Attaching a picture of the current state of the engine ready for the belt change and additional maintenance. Best regards, and thank you to everyone who posts and shares all the great knowledge. Rolfe Image Unavailable, Please Login
You can get a rough idea if the AC is charged by just turning it on with the engine running. If the compressor engages, there is at least a minimal charge in there since if there isn't, the low pressure switch would prevent the compressor from operating. Of course, there could be a problem with the pressure switch but that is less likely. I'd be shocked if there is any charge left in there after all this time... I agree that it would be good to find someone locally to guide you for your first attempt at cam belt replacement but it's certainly workable without that if you are somewhat mechanically inclined. There are some U tube videos on replacing 308/328 cam belts. FWIW...I know some folks like using cam belt locks. IMO they are unnecessary and just add extra work. It's much easier to install the belts if the cams are NOT locked because you will usually need a bit of "wiggle room" to install the new belts. You cannot get the cams mistimed if the pulleys are marked for alignment prior to belt removal; even a one-tooth error, which is the smallest possible error, is very obvious. If a cam shifts with the belt off- and sometimes they do due to valve spring pressure, just rotate it back to the aligned position/install the belt. With the cam pulleys marked, the only way to misalign them would be if they did shift and you never noticed it because you did the procedure with your eyes closed. However, the best advice is to do what makes you most comfortable. If you are more comfortable using cam belt locks, then do so!
Rolfe- Congratulations for getting closer to the road, looking forward to hearing how it fires up for you... "wish I was there" FWIW: this is a Prior Fchat thread regarding starting a car that's been sitting for a while, decent read. I like adding a little upper cylinder lube/fogging oil in the plug holes prior to start. Also, consider removing the fuel pump relay or fuse prior to initial start to build up oil pressure, then re-install relay/fuse to fire it up. Concur with Mike, cam locking tool is a "nice to have" but not necessary for a straight-up belt change. I didn't see your parts list, but install new tensioner bearings. Regarding air-conditioning, check either the low or high side Schrader valve for decent (>10 psi) residual pressure, best with a gauge. If it still has pressure after all the years, likely good to go, just recharge. That said, if you remove the compressor, leave it out for weight reduction! (but that's just me...) The last time I did something similar, I removed both fuel tanks which were heavy varnished and stinky, think I used kerosene to clean. You could also use brake-cleaner or a specialized fuel tank cleaner here. If available in your area, I would only use Non-Oxygenated premium gas (to me, Non-Ox at 91 Octane is better than oxygenated gas at 93 Octane) v/r Paul
Hi Mike, I have watched the video's and even watched the Wheeler Dealers episode on the Lamborghini Urraco several times where ED China replaces those timing belts. Very similar setup as the Ferrari. I will give it a go if no takers by next weekend. As for the A/C I am contemplating hooking it back up to see where it stands. My issue is even if the system was stable but low, it only takes R12 as is correct? Given the expense of R12 and future of its existence, wondering if I am just better off getting the retro air compressor as a replacement and be done with it? Not planning on doing the whole fan side of it, but just going with the retro air compressor and new lines for r134. Thoughts? Hi Paul, I will be videoing the moment the key is turned and will share that with the group win lose or draw. Hopefully no bad sounds. The link and start up precautions are helpful, and will be leveraging that knowledge as I perform other maintenance this week. I do have cans of A/C pro I use for my E30 which I converted to R134 that has a gauge on it. Will that connect up to the 308 A/C somewhere? I was looking at the compressor and don't see a similar fitting. My E30 has a line I plug the A/C pro right into. Very simple. As for the fuel tank I was hoping not to take them out unless I was going to run new A/C lines for the retro air conversion. My evaluation attempt will be to add a few gallons and let that drain out to see what that looks like. Rinse and repeat a few times if I can get that tank cleaner you recommended. Also change the fuel filter which I already have in inventory. Task list for this week (Don't mean to bore you, but this is helping me organize) 1) Clean all the parts that have been removed 2) Sump gasket for oil pan - Replace (It looks like that gasket may be failing) Will check the trans fluid gasket as well. I have a replacement gasket as well in inventory. 3) Change spark plugs - Iridium replacements 4) Change Oil/Filter 5) Fog the cylinders - Turn it over a few times at the balancer 6) Change fuel filter 7) Best effort to clean tanks - Will try the specialized tank cleaner 8) Pick up radiator which is getting a new core this week (Dropped it off today at this great shop in Medford MA) $590 for the re-core.) 9) Perform water pump and thermostat replacement - Parts in inventory 10) Update some replacement hoses - Parts in inventory 11) Pick up Diaper from restoration - The heat shield boxes were not in good shape, so they cut them out and made new ones. Refinished the diaper. 12) Get rims off car and get the new XWX's mounted - Any tips here? 13) Pick up radiator and re-install along with replacement hoses for the whole system 14) Refill and purge coolant system 15) Hope someone is available next weekend to do the belt and bearing change. If not, give it a go. 16) Clean battery terminals / Drop a battery in the car 17) Pull the Fuel pump fuse 18) Crank the car a few times 19) Re-install fuse 20) Turn on video 21) Start car! 22) Assess - Go no go for completing re-assembly Miss anything?
Sounds like you have a solid plan, looking forward to watching the video. The R134 gauge won't fit the 308 old-school R12 Shrader connections, you could wait until the car fires up and see if the compressor engages... Mounting the XWX's: Find a tire shop (and talk to the tech) who has the latest machines which secure the wheel by the outer rim, and not the older "claw" type that grabs the inner barrel of the wheel and leaves teeth marks.
1) Appreciate the advise on mounting the tires Prova. We have a brand new Town Fair Tire near my house so I will hit them up and make sure they use the outer rim method. 2) Unfortunate about the Shrader valve. Does anyone make a R12 to R134A Shrader converter that can just plug in? Wondering if I can just charge the system with R134A using an adapter to give that a whirl? Car achievements today: Got to cleaning all the parts that have been removed. Even though the parts looked good when they came off the car, they are absolutely filthy The goal of this car is not a garage queen. It will be a frequent driver during the non winter months. Still want it to look good though Pictures and tools of the trade are attached. I love my adjustable shop stool my wife got me for my birthday last year shown in one of the pictures. It makes these types of jobs a lot more enjoyable. Perfect height for squirreling inside the wheel well and washing parts at ground level Question: Now that the timing belt covers are perfectly clean, what method do people use to polish them to that high shine I have seen? Buffer wheel with a certain polish bar? Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
If you think the car will ever go to any concours judging then maybe look for some motorcycle cleaner spray that brightens aluminum, or perhaps you are finished cleaning the belt covers. If you want a very clean original-ish sheen then look into vapor blasting. If you want maximum bling and shine, then yes, a buffing wheel and rouge, dremel and felt tips, and a lot of time will make them reflective shiny.
Thanks Brian, appreciate the tips as I would like to get a bit of spit and polish on them. Todays progress: 1) Began removing the water pump and thermostat housing. Got 3 of the 4 bolts off, but one is being really stubborn. I am terrified of stripping or breaking the bolt Any tips? I don't think spraying WD40 is going to help. The bolt goes through the pump housing and into the block. Spray will never get there.
If you have time, soak with JB Blaster every so often for a couple of days. More on the "bit of heat" side (too hot to touch, guessing 300-400 degrees F) definitely not glowing red. BTW: Red on Black GTB... Gorgeous!
Try tightening the bolt first. That will often break the bond with less effort than loosening. All it takes is the slightest movement in the tightening direction to break it loose, then loosen it. It might require that you work it off slowly - loosen 1/16th of a turn, tighten back, loosen 1/8 turn, tighten back, loosen 3/16 of a turn, rinse/repeat. Do you have an electric impact wrench? They are really helpful and the impact shock can often loosen a bolt that would defy a regular socket/ratchet/breaker bar. Of course, use care whatever you do; if you break the bolt at the head it's not that big a deal, there are various tools that can still extract the bolt after you slide the WP out. But if you break it at the block, that's a lot more problematic...
Thanks Prova, will stop by home depot and get one of those torches. I am sure this won't be the only bolt/nut with issues. Although for most part has gone well as the car is not rusty, just dirty. Car is 31 years old now, and I bet some of these nuts and bolts have never been off. Betting the water pump is original as well by the looks of it. Hi Mike, I do have an electric impact driver (Milwaukee). I have hammered on it a few times with that to try exactly what you are describing, except I have not tried reverse! I will give that a go as well. Let's hope the broken bolt extraction is never needed. Today's progress: 1) Dumped a can of Sea Foam into the gas tank along with about 2 gallons of gas. Letting that sit for a day or two and will drain. Rinse and repeat one other time. I tried to get a hold of the Star Brite tank cleaner, but West Marine was out of it at our local store. I have heard some good things about Sea Foam, so I am giving that a go. 2) Sprayed the frozen water pump bolt with PB blaster just to give it some time to sit. Will torch, and reverse spin it tonight after work. -R
Updates for today. 1) On Flanagan's advice, I am taking my time with the last water pump bolt. Each day I am shooting it with more PB blaster, and putting the impact wrench on it for a few seconds. Forward and back for a second or two (Per Mike). Letting it sit. Bolt still won't come out, but I will keep this procedure up until it does. 2) Undid the hose clamps holding the water pump and thermostat housing in place. Someone placed the location of the clamps in a great spot, so job done in a minute. A video I saw on someone doing a GT4 had a bear with that. 3) Resolved to myself I need to begin the belt procedure by finding TDC. Starting with the crank cover - Simple enough to remove. I was expecting to see it perfectly hygenic inside the crank, but it is not. The underside of the crank cover has a layer of black engine crud on it. See picture Inside the crank it looks ok with a bit of grime, but again it set off alarm bells as it is not perfectly clean See picture There is also what looks like a crank sensor obstructing my view a bit. I don't see it on Birdman's crank picture. Can someone identify it for sure, and is it ok to just unplug it to clear up the view of the crank port? See picture Thanks in advance for any tips/explanations -R Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
The black crud is just accumulated powder from clutch disk wear... I see the Oil Pressure Sensor in the top part of your second picture, is this what is obstructing view of the flywheel timing marks? Looks normal.
Thanks Prova. Sounds like nothing to worry about in the bell housing which is great news. Today's update: Cleaning is a good thing! Got to thinking I was tired of getting filthy every time I was under the wheel well. Took a break today and started cleaning everything I can touch inside the well. CV joint at the wheel side came out great. Under all the grime was a good looking CV joint and a cuff that looked in good condition. I am wondering to myself how I could get this lucky? As I moved my way in towards the other end of the CV where it meats the trans, there was at least some of the source of the grime. A badly torn inner CV cuff, with probably a seal leaking inside. At least I know about it which is a good thing. It looks like replacing the rear suspension bushings will come sooner than I thought since it most likely would be silly not to replace while I am in there. Will be looking up archives on this job, but as always pointers welcome. The list grows longer.... (Not a shocker) Water pump bolt still stuck.. Process continues The compressor fairies ran away with my A/C compressor and left it on my bench. I am told not a hiss was heard from the 31 year old unit when they took it. Got a call from Rogers Radiator in Medford. My Radiator is now re-cored and good as new. Pick it up on Friday. It will be nice to start installing things instead of taking them out. I am told the condensor fairies may stop by tomorrow night and remove the condensor so I can leave it at Rogers when I pick up the radiator. That would be quite something. -R
I have to admit I'm surprised that the impact wrench couldn't easily remove the bolt. I recently used mine to break loose a bolt that I couldn't loosen with a 1/2" drive 18" breaker bar! But your approach is the right one- don't rush and just keep at it until it breaks loose. Good Luck!!!
Also, if you're convinced you'd break the stud off if you try too hard, you could do a pre-emptive strike and carefully use a cutoff tool (Dremel) to cut the nut off and preserve the studs and threads.
Magnetic Induction bolt heaters are a miracle of modern science. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0851C6Q22/
Great ideas on the bolts... Magnetic induction looks pretty trick. One of the issues with this particular bolt is the threads that are stuck are inside the block about three inches from the head. Attaching a picture of the stuck bolt and its location. Bolt goes through the water pump housing into the block where the issue is. That is why I don't think the penetrating fluid is doing much, or how much heat on the nut end of the bolt will help. I do have a miniscule separation at where the housing meetings the block, and I am dousing that with penetrating fluid as well. Also keeping up with impact wrench cycles forward and back. Tonight I also started tapping it with a hammer to try and free it up. Will keep on trying and give the heat a shot next. Updates for today: 1) The condenser fairies came and removed the A/C condenser so voila! Evaluating it I am sure there was not a drop of refrigerant in that system. It is off for re-core tomorrow. I am told that was a fairly simple task. 2) Evaluated the Radiator compartment and found a rubber strap I am not sure what it goes to. It is in the picture of the radiator compartment for any input. The rubber seats at the bottom are perished. Another item added to the list. 3) Looking at the radiator compartment I am sure I will need to remove the spare wheel tub to maintenance everything around in there. Looks simple enough. Only worry is putting new rivets in. Some of those angles look a bit tricky with a rivet gun. Any pointers on this job welcome, especially identifying the proper rivets to put back in. 4) Tomorrow picking up re-cored radiator and most likely remove the spare wheel tub to get at the radiator hose connections to replace. Also some electrical connections that needs some work in the front end.. 41 year old wiring needs a proper clean up as it is looking a little tired in some spots and I am sure failure points. 5) During my cleaning I noticed the lower forward cam pully has a rust spot along with some corrosion. I looked online at Superformance and the only option was a new Hill engineering pulley, but no original option. Are their any other options out there? Also, do you think the existing pulley is actually ok to use and I am being over dramatic thinking I should replace it? 6) Funny/Not so funny note. If you look in the spare wheel tub area you will see red dust in the lower corner. This car came from Texas and it has red dust everywhere. It is stuck to the car in so many nooks and crannies and not the easiest to remove. More fun! Thank you -R Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Since you're planning to replace the water pump (vs. rebuild it), you could drill a 1/8" hole in the pump ear at the 11:00 o'clock position (see marked picture below, small circle near the bolt head landing area) and spray PB Blaster directly to the bolt shaft which is significantly closer to the threads. So my apologies: You said bolt, I had read "one of the nuts with a stud." The induction bolt heater doesn't appear to be the right tool for this job, but would be for a nut on a stud... Your heat must be applied to the block and intermediate housing areas (larger left hand marked area) to expand the aluminum through holes (with a higher CTE/Coefficient of Thermal Expansion than the steel bolt) to a slightly larger diameter than the steel bolt shaft. I just went to the garage and removed the water pump, bolts were not very tight, but for yours, this is what I would next... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks Prova, The drilled hole sounds like great option as I already have my new pump sitting on the bench ready to go. Will try a couple more rounds of the old process then break out the drill. Wouldn't mind rebuilding this one for a spare, but not worth saving the old pump when there is a risk of breaking that bolt head off.
Make sure to get a fair amount of heat to the marked location on the aluminum areas. If you drill the hole and want to rebuild the old pump: 1- The hole likely wouldn't hurt anything in that location and 2- An aluminum welder could easily fill it.
Today's update 1) Got Radiator back today and dropped off A/C condenser. Looks about brand new except they painted over the contacts on the radiator switch I gave them to install. Will take a bit of sanding but no worries. I actually have a part that is ready to go back in the car! 2) Brought one of the wheels down to Town Fair tire for them to mount one of the new XWX's. I need that one tire replaced for the time being so I can roll the car out of the garage to do the fuel tank work. (Not doing that inside the garage!) To my dismay I was told they would not mount a tire they didn't sell and they helped me carry the rim and tire back to the car. Will be seeking another establishment 3) Of note, the spare rim was sent off for repair. It was heavily curbed so they had to order a magnesium rod to fix it. Should be done next week and looking brand new. 4) Still working the bolt. The heat is coming this weekend if it doesn't come free. Upcoming: 1) I think I am going to pull the seats out this weekend and give them a really good rub down with cleaner and leather treatment. 2) I am planning on attaching a battery to it and do an inspection of all the lights and electrics. (Will not be turning the key to start position until ready, but worth evaluating the electrical systems. 3) Evaluate rest of interior -R
