328 GTS air con is it just pointless or broken? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

328 GTS air con is it just pointless or broken?

Discussion in '308/328' started by Ballie64, May 9, 2021.

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  1. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2013
    291
    Herts, UK
    Full Name:
    Richard
    It is abnormal to lose a full gas charge in the space of a couple of years and the situation warrants leak detection.
    Condenser damage followed by missing access port caps and mechanical pipe joints are the most common areas to find a leak. The compressor seal could be leaking, but Sanden compressor seals are pretty good. Its the after market ones that tend to leak. You should see oil around the compressor clutch if the seal has leaked out several full charges of gas.
    If the vehicle has traditionally been leaking out a full gas charge every two years, it means the system has also lost a lot of oil. So once the leak is found it would be worth having the compressor oil level checked before recharging the system.
    R12 has been banned for use in the UK since late 90's
     
  2. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,308
    Sydney
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    maurice T
    Is R134a the only R12 alternative in the UK?
     
  3. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2013
    291
    Herts, UK
    Full Name:
    Richard
    There's also blends of hydro carbon refrigerants such as Propane and Butane, ,which are sold under brand names rather than the type of refrigerant they are. But these are flammable and don't have any official approvals for use in car A/C, so R134a is the preferred.
    Since a couple of years ago, R134a is now banned in new vehicles. The industry has been forced to move onto low GWP refrigerants such as R1234. But this is not a drop in for R134a.
     
  4. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 1, 2010
    7,779
    around Modena, Italy
    Full Name:
    Alberto Mantovani
    Yes: that's the reason why the cost of an R134a recharge once (four years ago) was 50-60 euro and now it's 100-120 euro. I wonder if the R1234YF is suited for a so old R12 designed A/C system. If you have a fire insurance, it could be lost, as R1234YF is slightly flammable. I don't know if the oil of the 328 A/C compressor is ok for R12: do you have any better info? I would recomend to stay with R134a (R12 is unfindable here in Italy since many years)

    Thank you.

    Ciao
     
  5. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2013
    291
    Herts, UK
    Full Name:
    Richard
    I definitely wouldn't recommend using R1234 in these systems. There are no endorsements from any of the component manufacturers, and as you rightly point out its flammable.
    The compressor oil is similar to that used in R134a systems, but has added additives, so you cant use R134a or R12 oil with R1234.
    As R134a demand starts to dwindle the price should drop. I bought some at the end of last year and it was significantly less expensive than some I bought earlier that year. R1234 on the other hand is currently very expensive.
     
  6. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,685
    Full Name:
    Mike 996
    I have used Duracool (propane-based) in my 328 for quite a few years. It was a huge improvement over R134, which the PO converted to at some point. As noted, although Propane-based refrigerants are used in AC systems throughout the world, it may not be approved for automotive use in some countries/provinces/states. In that case, it is totally a DIY thing.

    Propane has advantages over 134 - it has no currently-known bad effect on the atmosphere and it is much more efficient -actually even more efficient than Freon (AKA R12). It is also less expensive than 134 - at least in the USA. The flammability issue is the primary "objection" to its certification for car use by the refrigerant lobbyists in the USA. They seem to be OK with gasoline for car use...;)

    Duracool, a new drier and a new, correct expansion valve turned my almost useless converted-to-R134 system into a helpful system for general driving though still not adequate on hot, sunny days.
     
    steven_ew likes this.
  7. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    Just get it topped up with this gas locally - most a/c specialists (even Halfords) should have no problem and charge £ 100 roughly - you give no location so unable to offer local suggestion - I was told it was not unusual for a 308 to need a refill every other year - use it every trip
     
  8. BrockBenson

    BrockBenson Formula Junior

    Oct 18, 2018
    256
    Australia
    I had a similar issue with my QV. Turned out the gas had slowly leaked out. Not sure what gas was in there, but the hoses are the original R12 marked ones. Any reputable air conditioning specialist can work on these cars, its a basic system with pretty easy access for servicing. The people I went to re-charged the system and put a UV dye in the liquid, told me to come back after the summer and they would check for leaks (I assume using a UV light?). I though it it made sense to find where the leak is before starting throwing money on changing parts! Cheers BB
     
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  9. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
    14,501
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Tom Spiro
    My 328 used to leak out gas every year. I got my own set of gauges, and used Freeze 12 as the replacement... it was getting harder to find. The system had been converted to 134 and it worked ok when in use and was actually cold when moving. but in stop-and-go traffic it could not overcome the heat sink.... that is the system's biggest problem- its cant compensate for radiant heat.
     
  10. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    I see you are hiding your location. You must own this car in ... Anchorage Alaska?
     
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  11. Saabguy

    Saabguy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 28, 2012
    1,753
    Shreveport, LA
    HAH!!
     
  12. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Couple years ago, I was coming back from a Stooge event in SoCal. In my 1989 328 with a non-working AC, both windows were open, there was heated air coming from the foot well areas. It was 90F outside and likely 110 inside with both windows open. I was feeling sorry for myself and wished I had taken a 348 with a working AC (but a non-working heater), or my Porsche GT3 with everything working.
     
  13. Mule

    Mule F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 25, 2003
    3,750
    Alaska
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    Mule
    I live in Alaska, and mine has always worked well. We get 80 degree days and 20 hours of sun in the summer. Yes, black car, black interior, black roof doesn't help, but it is a small interior to cool. My A/C was serviced twice by Ferrari of Denver and it worked very well.

    Realistically, every time you fix a part of it, the next weakest link will fail, so you have to fix the system completely, and it should work well.
     
    Ak Jim likes this.
  14. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,257
    UK
    Your choice of gas in the UK is very limited. There is no R12 legally available , fines for handling it are huge.

    The problem with R134A is two fold: firstly its not as efficient as the R12 that the system was designed for and so even if its fully gassed it will never be as efficient as it could be and secondly R134's molecules are much smaller than R12's so the system will invariably not hold the stuff for long, its only a matter of how long it will take to leak out. It sounds like you have already found that one out.

    Some years ago there was some stuff called RS24 that was supposedly an R134 based drop in replacement for R12 but again, I don't think you can get it any more. R12 & R134 are not directly compatible - you have to purge the entire system to convert it between one and the other. It sounds like that has already been done to yours.

    You can renew everything if you like, but you will still then be stuck with the fact that the system is never going to work that well with R134 in it, even on a good day. The evaporator/condenser combination is not designed for it. Coupled with the poor air flow through the system as well, its never going to work well.

    Lastly, one of the things they do when they re-gas cars is to vacuum the system down & see if it holds a vacuum as a method of establishing whether the system is sound.

    As an experienced AC man once explained to me, its not really a solid test of how gas tight the system is (because its pulling on all the seals rather than pushing on them which is their natural state). So he used to pump the system up to about 10 BAR with nitrogen instead & leave it for 15-20 minutes. That, he reckoned, was a far more reliable test of the integrity of the system.
     
  15. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,257
    UK
    #40 Iain, May 18, 2021
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
    I don't think it would surprise me that much to see a charge of R134 leak out of a 328's AC system in a couple of years (even if it had been "Vacc'd down" & declared sound).
     
  16. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,344
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I just had a 328 in the shop. The compressor clutch failed. I tried to source a new one but came up empty. Apparently these clutches are indeed a Ferrari only part.

    I searched around for an alternative and came across a rotary compressor conversion kit from Polar Bear in Florida. It's a sanden compressor with bracket and hardware to adapt it to your existing a/c compressor bracket. I changed out the dryer and every o-ring I could get my hands on. The damn thing works awsome. It so much more efficient and so much lighter then the stock York unit. Nothing but an awsome upgrade. I would recommend it. I'm going to order another kit and keep it in stock.
     
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  17. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
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    Kim
    Tom would you think that my QV would benefit from installing this conversion?
    Thanks, Kim
     
  18. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2013
    291
    Herts, UK
    Full Name:
    Richard
    Iain, Even low cost leak detectors in capable hands are able to detect leaks as small as 6gms/yr. Therefore if a professional declares a system sound, and the system subsequently looses around 500gms/yr, then somethings wrong.....
     
  19. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,308
    Sydney
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    maurice T
    Hi Kim,
    Is your system still with R12 or has it been converted to R134a?
    The main advantages with going with the Sanden Compressor are,

    The Sanden requires less effort and is more efficient as opposed to the York,

    The Sanden is lighter and more compact than the York, this helps when replacing Timing belts.

    I did the conversion on my GT4 which had previously been retrofitted to R134a, but I went back to R12.
    The York had a leaking shaft seal so rather than repair it, I just went for the Sanden.
    The conversion is pretty straight forward but one thing to remember is that the hose fittings will now be different and will require replacing as well.

    Having said that, If your York is still working and is still on R12, I don’t believe you will see a significant difference between the two performance wise. We all know that the compressor isn’t the problem with the A/C unit. Airflow is the biggest hurdle in these cars.
     
    308 milano likes this.
  20. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,685
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    Mike 996
    I agree the Polar Bear it's a nice compressor/kit, I bought that one a couple of months ago based on a recommendation from someone on this site. That being said, I totally agree with Maurice T; the compressor itself isn't the problem as far as the AC capability is concerned. I decided to replace the York because I wanted to replace the original hoses and figured, what the heck, I'd like the slightly smaller size of the rotary compressor for the aforementioned improvement in belt access and operating efficiency.

    I installed the new compressor but haven't gotten around to replacing the hoses yet...not sure I will this year since I only have a few weeks until we leave for the UK for 6 months and I have more important projects to finish before we leave...:(
     
  21. 308 milano

    308 milano F1 Veteran

    Jan 15, 2007
    5,257
    Montana
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    Kim
    thanks Maurice. I’m not sure what refrigerant is running in my system. I know it works but kind of unnecessary in western Montana. Feels great to drive with the windows open around the lake when it’s 75°. From what I’ve read the York compressor seemed bulky and pulled a lot of power from the motor so the thought of something more efficient caught my eye. Probably wouldn’t hurt to change out My refrigerant lines anyway.
     
  22. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    4,308
    Sydney
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    maurice T
    A quick way to check (although not definite) what refrigerant you have is to have a look at the service valves..
    They are generally located on the compressor, I spliced mine into the hoses for easier access.

    The R12 service valves are simple 1/4” schrader fittings.
    The R134a service valves are a bit different in design which are a sort of a quick release coupling.

    Typical R12 schrader valve
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Typical R134a service fitting
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  23. Freddie328

    Freddie328 Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2013
    291
    Herts, UK
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    Richard
    Interestingly, whilst the Sanden looks more like a rotary compressor its actually a reciprocating piston compressor just like the York, but the rotating part is a wobble plate rather than Crankshaft, and this makes it neater and less cumbersome.
    With piston compressors the volumetric efficiency will fall off at higher condensing temps to a greater extent than a true scroll or rotary compressor.
    To improve compressor performance the condensing temps must be kept as low as possible, which brings us back to looking at the condenser and its airflow.
    Im sure sorting out the airflow, as mentioned, would be much more beneficial than changing to a flat tube Aluminium condenser, at least on a 328 - just look at those inner wheel arch grilles as an example of air restrictions.
     
  24. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,685
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    Mike 996
    " just look at those inner wheel arch grilles as an example of air restrictions."

    I removed that grill on my 328 many years ago and replaced it with large mesh screen. Made an immediate improvement of cooling in low speed/stuck traffic. TBF, I couldn't tell any difference at highway speed but well worth it in town.

    With the wheel on the car and the car on the ground as normal, you can't really notice the screen as opposed to the proper grill.
     
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  25. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

    Feb 21, 2014
    1,109
    Mansfield, TX
    Full Name:
    Ron
    I did the same on my QV. I did it for the turbo intercoolers. I think it’s a good mod for 308/328’s.
     

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