new 348 twin disc clutch installed issue | FerrariChat

new 348 twin disc clutch installed issue

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Lucas Picone, Apr 26, 2021.

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  1. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone
    1991 348ts with factory twin disc clutch assembly. Over winter we did some digging and found some oil leaks
    coming from clutch/flywheel area. Further diagnosis took us to leaking triple seals. So, we then ordered new clutch assembly from Ricambi America (AP racing if im not mistaken) and rebuilt flywheel with klebflur grease. We DID NOT touch the release bearing assembly whatsoever besides a basic wipe down. After installing all new parts. The clutch pedal is now grabbing right at the very top of the pedal (similar to a worn clutch) and shuttering fairly harshly. checked basics and pedal adjustments - all seem ok. Has anybody ever ran into this issue before? Possible air got into system somehow or some adjustment in bearing through??

    Thanks,

    Lucas
     
  2. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 12, 2017
    7,792
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Steve D.
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  3. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    When you remove the clutch housing, the throw out bearing will extend further. The bearing will slide out onto the dirty part of the sleeve. This usually contaminates the seals and they will leak. Be aware that the bearing will start leaking.
    Your issue may very well be set up height. I have had to machine parts to get the height correct on TR twin clutches. I suspect yours may be the same issue. Did the fingers move significantly in when you tightened the pressure plate? If not, it is a set up issue.
     
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  4. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone
    Thank you for the quick response. When we installed the new plate, the fingers moved quite a bit compared to any other clutch assembly probably about the same. What we did last night was take off the little inspection cover and with someone in the car we watched the throw of the bearing against the clutch, seems to be moving properly, lots of movement against the plate... that being said were unsure if its returning to correct position. we tried pushing it back with a pick and we had no luck. We also tried bleeding the clutch system - fluid was black and nasty but we don't think it made any difference. We will be road testing again tonight.
     
  5. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone
    Thank you all for the replies. We took apart the entire system again measured all related parts - everything is within spec. We compared it to the old clutch assembly, all ok. Check release bearing throw, we think its a bit hard to push back on the shaft but were not 100%, thoroughly flushed the system and placed it all back together. no change whatsoever. My next step I think is to re-install the old assembly and see if anything changes.
    We've also done some digging into machining the clutch master to a different sized bore .. not something I'm comfortable with doing because Id rather not mess with OEM parts. Another thing is I've been reading that this may be normal? Might just need to be driven a bit to let everything settle?? I'm not the biggest fan of that idea as we are experimenting with a pretty expensive clutch.

    any ideas???

    Thanks,

    Lucas
     
  6. Ferrari Tech

    Ferrari Tech Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2010
    1,126
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Wade Williams
    Sent you a PM
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,418
    socal
    Please describe what is rebuilt flywheel? You can have right SUH with out of wear limit ground flat FW and then the throw is off even if SUH is right.
     
  8. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone
    We pressed the flywheel out of the housing, split the flywheel housing following "my348.com" procedure. cleaned all the nasty old grease out of the middle springs and packed with all new fresh klebflur grease. Then placed it all back together,
    as for the SUH measurement, I'm not 1000% on my memory but I know that it was in spec - I want to say 48mm
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,103
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    #9 Rifledriver, May 11, 2021
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
    Did not resurface flywheel?

    Never had to machine parts to get set up height but I ignore factory specs anyway. AP clutches are so inconsistently made the factory set up height number has become pretty meaningless.

    TR and 348 double disc clutches I adjust for correct spring preload and correct spring finger angle and ignore the rest. If there is too much angle and too little preload you wind up where you are. If you have too little angle and too much preload a high RPM shift will end with the clutch sticking open due to centrifugal force.

    But it is all a waste of time with an unsurfaced flywheel. In my opinion it is also a waste of time with a reused TO bearing.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,103
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    It can also happen from an incorrect reinstallation of the flywheel in the housing.
     
  11. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone

    We did not resurface flywheel with a machine shop. We cleaned it up minorly by hand. there wasn't any heavy hot spots or anything .. as for the throw out bearing we did not replace because the clutch was replaced because of being soaked in oil, not worn so I didn't feel it was necessary.

    can you expand of the angle and preload you are speaking about? How can I check or adjust?
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,103
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Replacement of a clutch without resurfacing of the flywheel is a fools errand.

    Spring angle set by eye based on a few hundred installations. AP clutch sets never held good tolerances but have become terrible now that they seem to feel they are doing us a favor by still making them.
     
  13. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
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    Lucas Picone
    We also removed the flywheel again, checked clearance and made sure it was sitting correctly. Everything looks ok
     
  14. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
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    Lucas Picone
    I understand what your saying but, even if a flywheel not resurfaced, should that really affect pedal feel? the car ran and drove with the old clutch on that flywheel and the pedal felt great, like I said it was replaced because it was covered in oil
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,103
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Well then it must be OK.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    34,103
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I have been doing this on Ferrari for 40+ years and what you have done is not nor ever has been considered correct procedure. You want to debate it. Nothing to debate.
    You have done it incorrectly, cut corners and are now suffering the consequences of it.
     
  17. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
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    Lucas Picone
    Not really interested in how long you have done "this" for, I'm dealing with something that usually really shouldn't be an issue. At this point the release bearing is working correctly, there is no leaks at all and the flywheel measured in spec. I understand that this isn't the most perfect way to perform this job but I'm not here to debate on whos smarter than who.
    I've worked in dealership where they will not authorize release bearings just for the "while your in there" option, if the parts are still in correct working order I don't see a reason to replace. I am also not ruling out a bad bearing.

    I'm looking for information on the system not to argue with people.

    Lucas
     
  18. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
    712
    Treasure Coast Florida
    Full Name:
    MATT
    I'm just gonna throw this out there because I have heard of it happening. Are you a 100% positive that all 3 spacer shims were installed. I heard a story where somebody left one shim out thus creating an uneven surfaceand a skippy, jumpy clutch.
     
  19. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
    712
    Treasure Coast Florida
    Full Name:
    MATT
    BTW, My personal car, a 92 348 had an oil soaked clutch from a leaking triple seal. I merely disassembled everything replaced the triple seals and cleaned the clutch plates thoroughly with brake cleaner, slapped it all back together and it worked perfectly for over 2 years until it needed replacing due to standard wear.
     
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  20. Lucas Picone

    Lucas Picone Rookie

    Jul 31, 2018
    12
    Full Name:
    Lucas Picone
    I believe the new supplied AP clutch had them tacked on,I'm going to double check forsure but im almost positive there there. Thanks for the tip!

    Lucas
     
  21. POLO35

    POLO35 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2005
    712
    Treasure Coast Florida
    Full Name:
    MATT
    BTW.... If you have patience and are good with your fingers and a wrench, you do not need to remove the rear bumper or the upper muffler to remove the clutch. You need only remove the lower muffler canister and heat shield.
     
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