812 VS Rumors | Page 315 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. jumpinjohn

    jumpinjohn F1 Veteran
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    Hahaha!!


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  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
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    That is correct.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  3. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Yes from a different parade is Grigio Conchiglia as seen below in a picture shared by Marcel Massini >


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    1962 250 GT SWB
     
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  4. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Although 10717 was not born Grigio Mahmoud but Grigio Ferro 106-E-8 Salchi.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  6. Frank_C

    Frank_C F1 Rookie
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    Why am I thinking of grigio conchiglia? I've got grey hairs..........sitting next to it at Villa d'Este was that beautiful, red DB4 Zagato. Two of the most beautiful GTs of their time.

    Anyway, just no NFL/stripper/ex- iron curtain color combos please....
     
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  7. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

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    Absolutely agree with that. Timeless masterpieces.
     
  8. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Without problems engineers have no job. This challenge is a perfect opportunity for Ferrari's high performance technology resume. Certainly can retain the sound without a giant coated box having the same volume as the engine. That's just a lazy and unacceptable approach given the huge negatives. One has to wonder if they have given up since the announcement of going full electric. Public companies are subservient to their profit centers and if you can still increase your business without such investment then perhaps you just play to your competition.

    Someone, however, will do it and if it runs cooler, is more reliable, has more horsepower and sounds better than what Ferrari is producing then that is where buyers like us will go especially if the alternative is soundless, robotic all electric and diminutive engine-in-a-cave synthetic hybrids. Of course for today, there is no such requirement for GPF in the US so Ferrari could have ended this production NA V12 chapter with screeching 'F1' goodness for both of these models (which would be the simplest and cheapest solution) but perhaps other markets would have too much envy not getting the full package.
     
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  9. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    I am not sure you understand the engineering challenges involved. The only such N/A V12 is the (yet to be released - if ever) 3 million quid Valkyrie. Ferrari would have to engineer a wholly new engine for that to happen. I don't understand why some people cannot accept the realities of this world. It seems to be an american thing. The Europeans on this forum seem to get it. The Americans go nuclear about the GPF and even the lack of a manual box. What;s next? A lust over drum brakes? Go figure...
     
  10. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari makes engines. North America is Ferrari's largest market. There is no requirement for GPF in the US. Some people in the EU can't understand this.
     
  11. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    Ferrari is a European company and they have to build cars for the whole world. This may come as a shock to our friends across the Pond, but the US is not the centre of this world...
     
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  12. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    But it is the largest market and therefore has significant impact one the final product.
     
  13. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    I thought this 812C was about celebrating past Ferrari natural glory and NOT caving to the blighted EU future already. North America and other markets don't require GPF but Ferrari decided to cheap out.

    day355 was right; the badge provides cover for all sorts of questionable antics...
     
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  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Cosworth has never built a V12 engine for any car before must less a road car, good luck with that, but, we will never know because so few will exist and will mostly be show pieces.

    GPF is way more than a sound issue, sound is the first issue of course, but I think the longer term effects are all negative,

    repeating:

    Post 4390 in 812 VS Rumors
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147750977/
    GPF review:

    (x) adds HEAT SOAK to engine bay, did Ferrari do anything to reduce the heat? unlikely, needs to be there for GPF to function

    (x) removes high frequencies from upper RPM so 7000rpm "pitch" is hardly distinguishable from 9000rpm pitch (without hot tube such as on F8/SF90)

    (x) adds COMPLEXITY, it has to burn off soot, it is an 'active device' unlike catalysts

    (x) POISONS the engine, by the ECU forcing the engine to run lean to increase exhaust gas temperatures to do full soot/regenerate cycle

    (x) REDUCES horsepower by a fixed amount, at least 20PS (yes, catalysts also do this, just another negative, that's why listed last here)

    I believe none of that is any good, hence the significance of GPF discussion in discussions....
     
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  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Porsche/VW Group exclude GPFs for outside EU...and China markets, so, it can be done.

    And the fuel quality (high sulfur) in Australia makes GPFs clog, so, Ferrari will be paying for more warranty claims there....
     
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  16. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
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    So is speeding :)

    Who cares if its illegal !!!
     
  17. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
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    so what - so is VAG group and yet they adapt to markets - Ito of the US being the centre of the world - when last I checked it accounted for 50%+ of all the capitalisation on all markets globally so yes it is the centre of the world - NOTE: I neither reside in the US or am a US citizen.
     
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  18. rossodino

    rossodino Formula Junior

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    Cosworth had a very big hand in the One 77 series engine which debut in 2009-2010, 750 Hp on a V 12 at that time was very impressive unheard of, what I cannot find is if they built the entire engine for that series, its not clear but they were a major contributor to that fabulous motor.
     
  19. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    Obviously the EU has the largest bearing, judging by Ferrari's technical decisions.


    I guess you thought wrong. The Competizione is a product of its era and has to follow certain rules. "Dura lex, sed lex".


    Questionable just because they follow the law? That's a new definition I guess...


    People used to say the same things for calaytic converters. It's just a legal requirement and car manufacturers have to deal with it. Stop complaining already, people. :)


    The EU and China amount to about 60% of Ferrari's global market, if not more. Other markets will follow suit with such regulations. Porsche is a mass manufacturer, Ferrari is a specialist which builds 10,000 cars per annum, thus they cannot afford to build two different engines.


    PS: I am not quoting everyone's posts, but my reply covers all the things that have been written.
     
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  20. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    To help this discussion and in general, IMO the threads with the best and most enjoyable discussions focus purely on central points. It all falls apart when it gets to derailing someone through even slight verbal negative statements with personal attacks. Attempts to debate a point by derailing the person is the land of political campaigning. That just starts a downward cycle. The ratio of mouth to ears greatly increases.

    My hope is that we keep Ferrarichat to the highest standard. So you always feel free to post your thoughts. In a group of friends.
     
  21. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    I believe that the discussion is being conducted in a very friendly manner thus far. On top of that, I enjoy it very much when we are talking engines or suspensions, instead of money or depreciation.
     
  22. Boots

    Boots Formula 3

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    Will this end up making its way to North America? I feel a little ill-informed on the subject.
     
  23. Boots

    Boots Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2020
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    Question. And sorry if this sounds a bit elementary, I'll admit I'm not as well versed on the technical/mechanical side but I do enjoy learning from you lot. Does the installation of a GPF require an entirely new engine to be built? I was under the assumption that a GPF was fitted between the engine and the exhaust? I must be wrong here.

    Second, but this is more so just a comment rather than a question. To those who are concerned about the noise reduction due to GPF's, would an aftermarket exhaust not solve this issue? And if so, why then not just opt for one that suits your taste? Is it a matter of principle?
     
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  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

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    How's the Tar and Feather business these days?:D

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  25. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    No, Ferrari develops to the lowest common denominator, because Ferrari intends to sell into the EU market, that market is included in that determination.

    No, catalytic converters never did what the GPF does, so no one could of said any such thing, do you realize that GPF and catalytic converters are different and perform mutually exclusive tasks? Please refrain from further response until you study up and thoroughly understand and can accurately differentiate between different devices and function.

    Note, at no time is EU+China 60% of Ferrari's global market. Never has been and may never be.

    China is small market, on its own, less than 10% and it augmented by inclusion of other Asian countries (per Ferrari's annual report - image below)
    See Page 56:
    https://corporate.ferrari.com/sites/ferrari15ipo/files/ar_2020_ferrari_web.pdf

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    Even if you add in the rest of EMEA which includes smaller EU markets, it is still far less than 60%, please include references with your 'facts', it seems it will improve your accuracy.
     
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