I agree that the 812 SF is excellent value at half the cost of the 812 C, and I plan to keep our example and put tens of thousands of guilt-free miles on it. The again, an F12 can now be purchased for roughly 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of the tdf, and it’s far more than 1/3 to 1/4 the car that the tdf is. Yet, there is still robust demand for the tdf. I think exclusivity will always appeal to a large group of enthusiasts. It seems that Ferrari can essentially charge whatever it wants if it makes its customers feel special enough. The same is true with handbags, mechanical watches, etc.
I think this is well said and true as you point out for many luxury products. Objectively at twice the price of a SF we are beyond the point where value makes sense and it’s just down to whether you want it enough. I think these pages have emboldened those of us that got an allocation into thinking there is a long line of people behind us that are willing to pay $700-750,000 for a go-faster 812, where very nice examples of the SF can be bought for $400,000 less. Maybe I’m in the minority, but personally I have a little voice in my head asking me if this makes sense.
Nothing about any Ferrari makes sense; but should it.....? Value is only in your own head. Nothing is cheap and nothing is expensive; it's your own perception that matters. It's the emotion that matters and thus has value.
I agree completely with you. That little voice has taken over for me. I made a conscious decision about 1-2 years ago to step off the Ferrari allocation treadmill for a bit. I really miss Tailor Made visits to the factory, but many of Ferrari’s hoops had honestly become burdensome to me. I also haven’t been as excited about the newer products for a variety of reasons, some of which aren’t entirely Ferrari’s fault. As you’ve alluded, the base models are so good now and far surpass anything I ever thought was possible in a street car. I also seem incapable of keeping miles off my cars, and most of the VS valuations suffer significantly with thousands of miles on the odometer. I like both the 812C and Aperta and feel a little sad that I’m no longer in the running for either. But driving the TM 812 already puts a big smile on my face so it’s all good. Every time I drive my “lowly” Porsche 993TT, I remember how much I love smaller, simpler, analog cars. Back to the future for me.
I own a 599 gto and was considering to sell it and push for an allocation on the 812C. I decided not to and am happy with that decision. The 812C is a masterpiece of engineering but it might not be able to provide the same analog feel the GTO gives (also a GTO is worth less than 812C list price and was produced in less than half the numbers...)
well in Europe a nice GTO ( with less than 10000 km ) is very difficult to find with less than 580/600 K euros ... however I am agree with you . Gto is a sensational car and I love it , raw , unique sound , fantastic sensation from its clutch... I love it !.... and is ageing very very well!
Of course..but all those latest and greatest jets are all discarded to the scrap heap in due course while those vintage radial engine planes are pulled out of swamps/jungles/iceflows to be saved and restored. I think the ICE engine and cars like the GTO/TDF/812C (amongst many others of course) will all be coveted and saved while all our future electric cars will be be destined for the battery recycle plants - Ferrari included.
Appliances are indeed disposable. And batteries have expiration dates, whereas internal combustion engines don't.
While I didn’t qualify for the VS, I have a similar voice in my head asking the same question had I been offered one. I didn’t buy my SF for its handling, ergonomics or steering feel etc. I bought it for the engine. How it sounds and how it accelerates. Based on the videos I’ve seen so far, the VS might be a step backwards in the sound department and I probably wouldn’t notice a big difference in acceleration. Besides, I have other cars that provide a next level experience in straight line performance. I will admit that I love the more aggressive bodywork of the VS although I do think they should have made the rear wheels 1” larger in diameter to better balance out the added length and extra ‘thic’ area behind the rear wheel arches.
Unless there is a major breakthrough in battery technology (supercapacitors anyone?) most hybrids and all electric cars will be heavy and have compromised handling as a result. Acceleration yes but great handling near the limit no. I have no interest in drag races but if I want sub 10 sec quarter miles most liter bikes do that with all the analog feel and adrenaline one could want or spend on a Mclaren 720S or much more expensive car. If Ferrari can somehow retain that analog feel while going electric (unlikely but Italian passion sometimes comes up with something magical that great engineering can’t) I’ll be first in line to try it out but as others here have said blindfold me to see if I can tell the difference by the seat of my pants! My GTS arrives in a few days and will probably be a keeper for some time to come. Of course I have said similar for all my other vehicles until the newer one came along... Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
A 599 GTO in triple yellow sold recently in Switzerland for Swiss Francs 500'000 (500 Grand Swissies!). And it had less than 10 K kms. That is much less than 580 K Euros. Right now there is a red one available for 550 K Swiss and another red one with under 7'000 kms at 590 K Swiss. Plus another red one for 549 K Swiss and one for 598 K Swiss. Marcel Massini
I get the whole “value is in your head” argument but is that true when you can compare to other items of value? Does an 812c have more value than a nice F12 plus a nice 812SF plus a nice 2022 Porsche GT3 touring with a 6 speed? I suspect that is something we could debate.
Not possible to answer such question w/o driving it. Before driving Tdf, I didn't know. After driving, yes all day long!
I'm sure if we were discussing all of this over coffee, we'd be good friends. This is a public forum and I have to measure what I have to say about Ferrari ... What Ferrari thinks is that from the moment the badge is on the car people will buy whatever the product. The marketing department understood that the majority of customers bought more a badge than content (I'm not talking about our community of course). So they say, in the future, that we have to capitalize on the badge. The problem is that the story, which was their strong point with the nobility of the mechanics, the design, the race, the sound ... everything that made up the myth, will become a handicap because it will disappear. You are going to have an unprecedented marketing offensive to try to make people forget this constitutive story of the brand, in order to tell you that the best is now and that you have to buy it, and that otherwise you have not understood anything... The first test step is the arrival of F 171 ... Others will follow behind ... The question for us is whether we are willing to give up what we love about a Ferrari and buy cars that are far removed from the brand's DNA. Beyond the restrictive regulations, the problem is that there is no vision and no "real" Ferrari culture within the company today. LCDM said "I make the best Ferrari, and if the princes or the actors don't want to buy it because they don't like it, so be it." Today we manufacture "a product" which must appeal to the whole world and include universal stylistic codes. People want aggressive form, Lamborghini style ... at the expense of Ferrari style language ... we're going to give it to them. People want power that cannot be used on open roads, regardless of engine nobility and content ... we will give it to them. .... Marketing works at Ferrari as if it were at Audi or some other brand. There is no culture or thinking about the brand. As a result, Ferrari has become today a manufacturer of statutory heavy GT cars, rather than a sports car manufacturer as it once was, and by which the myth has been built on the level of road cars. What is distressing is that it was still possible to do otherwise. The F 171 did not need a hybridization, t of around a hundred kg more and a Murcielago exhaust. Keeping the MC 20 and making it even lighter, improving it at all levels, because the technical know-how is there, would have been much more exciting. It needs to be less powerful, and lighter! it was to take the risk of selling a Ferrari faithful to what it is, rather than wanting to satisfy the ego of the image customer in his quest for power. Without question, it is Gordon Murray's vision that is correct. But Ferrari is incapable of that, because there is only a marketing vision established by young people who could just as well work at Audi and apply what they learned in school. It is therefore a Gordon Murray who should have defined and drawn up the next product plan, and especially this content. Instead, you will have something else. Electric cables, digital screens galore, the weight increased sharply, digital driving with so many driving aids that it becomes almost artificial, no more sound with the 68 db of the Euro 7 standard ... Maybe you understand more why I say that Ferrari is about to be another brand of which only the badge will remain ... After free everyone to buy...or not ! Digital cars and electrification embodies the end of an era, and in my opinion the end of interest in this new brand.
I may be clouded by lust for this car. I think it sounds great (and looks fantastic). And it’s a must have!
I agree with mostly everything you've said, I think what you're saying is entirely true and think you've made a very clear case. However, what I will disagree with is this statement here. Not because I think you're wrong, but because I think it's simply unrealistic nowadays, and unfortunately so. The thing is, I think we're very similar in our value systems in regards to cars. And I very much agree with Gordan Murray's vision and how he runs things there. Whether it's design, or simply the ethos of the company. But Ferrari is not a small, private company that sells 100 cars over the course of 4 years. They're a public company that must appease shareholders, and this is an inescapable reality, and one we must live with. Hence the shift in design language, incorporation of shiny new tech, etc...All to attract a younger generation of consumers who want to impress on social media. So what I take from this shift into a new direction is a greater appreciation for their cars (and those of most manufacturers) of the past and the present. Hopefully, the direction of this new course adjusts, but I find myself prepared to live in a world where modern Ferrari's do not echo the same ethos of those of which we love so much.
Well I think that Switzerland for many reason is an happy “island “ I don’t know... but I think that import those car to the EU you will have to pay at least the VAT of your country ( Italy 22% ) .... however except from Switzerland in the rest of Europe they are quite all almost between 570 and 800 k euros.
Calling it the way I see it. The GPF is kryptonite to the character of the Ferrari V12 engine. I am very disappointed. The sound is muffled and completely inferior. Its disappointing that after so many iterations of the NA engine with GPF that they did not develop a fuel method that eliminated the need for the GPF. Sounds like a V12 in a cave. You can hear all the added bass and exhaust shenanigans to try and reshape the sound but it is really an epic fail for that engine. I was hoping that they would have alternate intake/combustion design and not just the higher particle generating DFI. Maybe they do have it and leaving it for the hyper. In any case it should have been done for the last of the production pure NA V12. I can't help thinking Lucca would have pulled it off even if they made less profit. Legacy and all that for true enthusiasts. Most will say it sounds great (a masterpiece) just as was said by some for the 488, F8 and GTS but really we are very disappointed. No desire to own a V12 or any engine with GPF.
I can say there are many different opinion on GPF with the 812 ...some say sounds better with .. some other no... probably the truth is on the middle .. so there’s not noticeable differences ( with or without )
From what I see of the younger generation, Ferrari is the top brand and number two - whatever it is - is light years behind. I suspect that fact drives decision making in Maranello far more than purists' preference for analog and gated shifters.