Porsche in Formula 1? | Page 6 | FerrariChat

Porsche in Formula 1?

Discussion in 'F1' started by 444sp, Jul 12, 2017.

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  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The same could be said about Renault which has been tiptoeing in F1 since the 80s.

    As for Honda, they are in trouble with their road cars sales in Europe falling below expectations.
    They are closing their plant in Swindon.
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Heck, If Honda put their modern engines in the cars they produced in the 90s there would arguably sell more cars !!
     
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  3. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    I think the VW group wants a foothold in F1 and Porsche would be one of the brands to do it with, however today's announcement of their working with Penske on a full on LMDh program might mean VW will choose another brand for the F1 exploits.
     
  4. vinny84

    vinny84 Formula Junior

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    I hope they chose their Bugatti brand to showcase if they decide to join in
     
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  5. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Unlikely; VW has been secretly trying to find a buyer for Bugatti for some time now.
     
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  6. LamboLover

    LamboLover F1 Rookie

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    I wonder if anything from Penske will make it to Audi. There was an article a few days ago detailing Audi Sport's boss claiming the Audi is being developed in cooperation with Porsche.
     
  7. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    It's too early to tell. It would be extremely weird for them to have both Audi and Porsche running the spec chassis LMDh class. It's already scandalous enough that Porsche aren't developing their own chassis - 2 manufacturers with storied Le Mans history under the same holding group fielding spec chassis cars would be very strange. Before the announcement they were working with Penske I thought maybe they would use one brand at Le Mans and the other for the US market - that would make most sense, so in that case "same car" but different brands - however Porsche's release talks about both Le Mans and IMSA. No idea what that means for Audi. To make things worse for them, but definitely better for the show, Audi's long term Le Mans partners Joest Racing are running the Glickenhaus program.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Porsche and Audi made a commercial choice by opting to run under LMDh rules rather than LMH. Using a specs chassis and the standard hybrid system will allow them to compete in 2 series at low cost. Their R&D budget will be lower, the cars cheaper and marketable. In fact, I wouldn't be surprise if LMDh steals some customers from the LMP2 category. There is a large market there, both in WEC and IMSA. Porsche, and to a lesser extent Audi, have supplied customer teams in the past. The US are a big market for Porsche, and I think their stratefy has been decided along this consideration.

    I suspect that most of the LMH projects will be more expensive, and only factory run.
     
  9. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    I agree with what you're saying regarding the costs, they've even said that already. What I don't agree with is that it is more marketable to have both factories run LMDh cars at the same time in the same series. Everyone's just gonna thing it's the same car with two different sets of clothes. That's never a good thing. Unless they pull out completely different engine solutions, which would make everything more expensive for almost no reason. It would also be the possible "link" to F1 - if one of them manages to make an engine that serves both purposes, that would be very cool, and very marketable.

    Still, very strange to see Porsche go for an all-out victory in a car they will not be designing from the ground up. Audi too, for that matter.
     
  10. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    So much racing today is just badges glued to spec cars. Why should Porsche be any different. Racing today is not about engineering, its about sponsorship.
     
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  11. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    There are people doing it the old-school way. Glickenhaus comes to mind. The LMH class was built to allow for engineering creativity, and no doubt it will be taken advantage of by others who don't necessarily agree with your statement. Ferrari, for instance.
     
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  12. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
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    Audi and Bentley ran together in the 2002-2005 era, and the same was said about it at the time, why run both. But they did.
     
  13. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Not so sure.

    Back in the 90s, Porsche adapted a TWR chassis designed by Ross Brawn to run in IMSA, but cancelled the project.
    That chassis had been originally created for Jaguar, run by Tom Walkinshaw Racing.

    Two TWR chassis were entered at Le Mans by Joest Racing in 7996, one won the race.
    The same car was again entered in1997 and won the race again!

    In both cases, the win was attributed to Porsche.
     
  14. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    That car has been called the TWR WSC 95, and yes you're right they didn't develop the chassis however it was not a spec chassis - it was a ground up creation by TWR (well, derived from the Jaguar XJR-14, but still NOT a multiple customer chassis). What I'm saying is it's strange to see them racing a chassis that many others will be racing, too! I'm of the old fashioned opinion that a manufacturer can only claim to win a race outright if they build the chassis (and power plant too but that is a step beyond for most). Anyway, it is what it is, and luckily brands such as Toyota, Peugeot, Glickenhaus, probably Ferrari and others (one would hope) will go at it the old-fashioned way and that will be great to see - even if BOP ends up ruining the whole thing in terms of overall competitiveness.
     
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  15. LamboLover

    LamboLover F1 Rookie

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    I found the article.

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport-news-le-mans-and-sportscars/audi-and-porsche-collaborate-2023-le-mans-24-hours

    It mentions the Audi in IMSA as well.
    That's interesting to learn about Joest Racing, though. I had always seen them as like AF Corse for Ferrari, like an unofficial "factory" team.
     
  16. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    If VW actually does go into F-1 I think they either go in as VW and badge customer engines as Lamborghini or Bentley or go in as either of those brands... from a marketing standpoint - not many people can afford a Bentley or Lamborghini - many more a VW in comparison with Renault and Mercedes... but I still doubt anone buys a Merc because of F-1... you may be able to attract more Chinese sponsor money with Bentley or Lamborghini... Bugatti while my choice - just has no economic reason to be in F-1... unless the tie up with Rimmac is real, and they start to produce a down market / mass market car..... which still does not have much F1 appeal... however if you wanted to compete in F-1 but not worry about any negative press on poor performance - Bugatti makes the most sense since no average person is in that market... and If you are buying a $4M car.... lack of success in F-1 is also meaningless. so if this is a technical exercise then Bugatti is the way... but doubtful its just a tech exercise. Either way Porsche in F1 to me - historically speaking is not a good omen... but if they put up the $$$ they can and will be succesful.
     
  17. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Bugatti is a loss-making company that is more an indulgence for the VAG group than anything.
    Bugatti hasn't been on the radar for more than 40 years, until resurrected by Artioli (in Italy) and later bought and relocated in France by VW.
    It's a halo brand that isn't really related to VW in the public mind. Bugatti is more in the Koenigsegg or Pagani mould, a very esoteric car company.
    I can't see the commercial interest for VW to badge a potential F1 effort as Bugatti.
     
  18. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I cant argue with you at all. except that F-1 is not a commercial gain business either... so if you are going to show off High tech - what other name is best but Bugatti. or if you are going to sell to someone else and want to up the price... get more cachet for the name... to me still a long shot... the only brand that really makes any F-1 sense that VW has is either Audi or Lamborghini. I've driven Audi's but never owned one.. or Lamborghini for that matter but for F-1 today - unless you call the team Auto Union - Lamborghini has the only sensible pedigree. ( outside Bugatti )

    I just think a poor showing in F-1 for Porsche ( again ) does nothing to its credibility.... and if they are eying electric cars - Formula E is the place .. and they are there now.

    A bit like Alfa - Bugatti at least has a very solid racing history pre-war... as does Auto Union .. ( Audi today ). it would be cool to have the silver arrows battle it out again, but I don't see Audi wanting any negative press either losing to MB.. again.

    Bugatti has pretty much been on all car guy radars ... its just the models that were on the radar are old. The Bugatti name was very much alive in the 80's with the sale of a Bugatti Royal... I'm glad that Artoli and Piech salvaged the brand, I do wish they would come down market with at least a 3 car line up. Hyper car like the Bolid, Halo car - Chiron, and Sports sedan mid priced at $300k Think - FF, competitor. I remember a CAR article back when VW bought them, they speculated that there would be the ultra fast rare car, then car to compete with Ferrari ,and then a more mass market sports car based on the boxter architecture... I don't get why VW did not move to have a lower price - more volume car...
     
  19. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I agree. They had beautiful cars back in the 80s and 90s. These days they do not know what they want, and bowing to pressure set by idiots have no clue about transportation.
     
  20. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    For exactly the same reason Ferrari does not make a $150K OTR car these days.
     
  21. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I think its all relative. I'm not talking about a $100K sports car... but from $3M to say $500K... ? seems somewhat reasonable? I don't know about the loss on every Veyron made etc... but seems like a horrible business model... and Piech was not a fool.... but here we are talking about it so I guess it works.
     

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