Ruminations of a mad car market | FerrariChat

Ruminations of a mad car market

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Salami, May 3, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    Having a lunch discus about cars with a friend, I was telling him that the reason my 456gt is so undervalued is purely because it has a back seat. He challenged that and it got us talking about what is it that makes a certain car model jump in value? We have seen some surprising leaps in segments of cars lately, at least for me. I never saw the crusty old Japanese cars getting the due they seem to be now. That is crazy! But what’s even crazier is when you put up an old 240Z or restored blazer that they are asking 50k$ for, and then look at a 456gt next to them and realize they are the same value! But only one has arguably the most elite marque of any brand, a race bred 4 valve v12 and a stick shift, beautiful hand made construction in low numbers, and a gorgeous style that can only come from a car which cost twice as much as my house when new! Now, the last part is sort of subjective but come on, these are not an ugly car on any scale.
    So, then how can it be that this model of Ferrari specifically, can be so low in value? 50k$ for this car seems like a bargain for all these reasons. But is it really rare? Around 3000 made over 10 years for world wide use does seem rare to me, however compared to some special editions and models this is actually not rare at all.
    So, why is it that the 456gt was the model lost to history and forgotten? I’m not complaining by any means, because it’s only due to this fact that I’m able to own one as a lowly blue collar welder/artist. So I’m super glad it was forgotten, but honestly, is the luxurious, hand made leather back seat really so repulsive that a well used bronco with a ****ty powder blue paint job and some rechromed bumpers can top it on the auction block? And will there come a time when the world will see these as the timeless beauties they are, and boost the value up accordingly? Is the culture of cars shifting, and the status of Ferrari becoming tainted by the hipster youth who don’t want to flaunt wealth (even though they still do, just in different and lame ways)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Welcome to the 2+2 world. 250 GTE vs 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso, 365 GT 2+2 vs 275 GTB/4, 612 vs 599, FF vs F12, 456 vs 550.
     
    Thomas S., tres55 and Salami like this.
  3. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior

    Sep 5, 2006
    808
    Fair Oaks, CA
    Full Name:
    Tom Mink
    As someone who has a nice 240Z for sale right this very second, I can promise you nobody is knocking down my door at a price that's significantly less than $50K. :)
     
    technom3, Bas and Salami like this.
  4. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    #4 Salami, May 4, 2021
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
    Okay, but WHY?! It makes no sense man!! My only thought is that the other cars in other segments like bronco or old Japanese cars is that they remind the buyer of their childhood, or their dads car grandpas pickup etc. where a Ferrari doesn’t really remind us of that as much, unless you’re a rich kid in which case you probably have newer ferraris or older ones that are solid collectibles. I dunno, it’s just so interesting to me that my car, one of 83 manual 456 in USA, (84 now that hoovie imported one) would be so affordable! You’d think that if that were true it would be because it’s a terribly awkward shaped, high production run, or awful reliability issues or a lesser brand that nobody cares about. But none of these are true of this lovely model. It’s a front engine V12 gated beauty that cost less than a new Subaru! BELLISSIMO!
     

    Attached Files:

    masinari, Thomas S., Fennicus and 2 others like this.
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Makes perfect sense to me, but then I have been around the Ferrari world for 40 years or so.
     
  6. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    So you’re proposing that the 456 will never jump in value?
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    250 GTEs jumped in value, but are only a fraction of what a Lusso brings. Same for Queen Mothers, but GTB/4s are in the millions. All relative.
     
  8. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    You say it makes sense but you haven’t explained why. It doesn’t make sense to me. I understand that historically it’s consistent, but I still don’t get why a Porsche 2+2 doesn’t seem to have these same rules applied to it, even with much higher production numbers. So it goes beyond “it’s a 2+2 that’s how they are”
     
  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Because Porsche only made 2+2s for most of its history. My 57 356A was a 2+2 and so were my 69 911E and 911S models.
     
  10. dsd

    dsd F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 19, 2006
    4,185
    Northern Virginia
    I like 2+2s. The 250 GTE is kind of my dream car. I really regret not picking one up when they were obtainable.
     
  11. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 20, 2019
    1,244
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Mirek
    Ferrari has been building 2+2’s for at least as long or close to it.
    Since 1960 or so right ?
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips

    Attached Files:

    Fennicus and Mirek like this.
  13. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    592
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    I'm not complaining, my first car was an E-type, but also a 2+2 (1966 Series 1) and the 250 GT/E was an option back then. They didn't cost more.

    No regrets, I have had my eyes (and have bid for) on 365 GTC/4's, 365 and 330 GT 2+2's etc.

    I may have to dig out my Touring book, but I believe Touring designed some 2+2's for the very earliest 166 and 195 chassis as well, but the 2-seater Berlinettas and Barchettas were of course preferred by the racers, but I'm not a racer but a family man and thus I too thought the 456 GT was made for me and at an affordable price too, so I've had one now for over six years, and I don't think I am a bit bored yet, 7th summer ahead!

    Cheers!


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,252
    Eastdown
    Full Name:
    Darius
    Il Tifoso likes this.
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Pekka- There were earlier 2+2s. The 340 just happened to be one I remembered.
     
    Fennicus likes this.
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Darius- There would not be much difference between an HGTS/HGTC 3 pedal and an HGT2 3 pedal. When HGT2 was introduced, CCMs were still optional and the HGT2/CCM combo was sometimes called HGTC by Ferrari.
     
    Themaven likes this.
  17. root

    root Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 28, 2012
    472
    Bay Area, Ca
    #17 root, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
    I see two different issues. One is 2 seater vs 2+2 Ferraris. The other is any Ferrari vs other higher production cars that sold for less when new but are currently hot such as Broncos, BMW e24 and e31, Porsche 928, or even R107 MBs that suddenly started attracting a lot of interest and money. The first issue is a very old one and goes back decades in the Ferrari collector community. To a Ferrari collector a 2+2 Ferrari will not be valued as high as an equivalent 2 seater Ferrari and that's the way it has always been. The second issue I believe has a lot to do with the hipster buyer crowd that tends to follow the latest trend in a herd. If in doubt take a look at F355 prices on BaT and Hagerty. Last F355 sold for $140k on BaT. It had 25k miles, 8 owners, and accident history. A 456 with similar mileage and history wouldn't bring a third of that price. When any MB R107, Porsche 928, BMW e24 or e31 brings more than a 456 in similar condition you know value is not at play, but emotions and trendiness. As "Collector" car buying is ruled to a large extent by emotions and trends you should wait for the 456 turn to come. All it takes is for a few trend setters to overpay for theirs and the rest will follow.
     
  18. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    I was hoping it wasn’t that but I believe you may be right on the money. And that may prove a problem for a Ferrari also, as the brand might be hard to convince the hipsters of its coolness. Similary the hot rod market is floundering right now. It will be interesting to see if that segment comes back someday.
     
  19. Mirek

    Mirek Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 20, 2019
    1,244
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Mirek
    Understated classic cool will always come around.
     
    Steen Jensen likes this.
  20. renn20

    renn20 Karting

    Aug 21, 2019
    78
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    KL
    Don't worry. The time will come. On the Porsche side, The bastard child 964 was dirt cheap for so many years. Look where it is today. Nowadays the fried egg 966s are increasing value. People finally realize the 996 is the last affordable 911, and it's a very good car. The good cars are already in the high 30s. The Porsche case might not be an apple to apple comparison to 456. I do believe v12 Ferrari at less than 70k is a bargain. Eventually, people will realize, and there are only so few of them around.

    I also think the 456 is not known to a lot of people. Having more social media presence would definitely help the cause.
     
  21. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    592
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    #21 Fennicus, May 6, 2021
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    Sure, no problem, and a great car that 340 Ghia Berlinetta or 2+2 coupe is.

    I was just thinking out loud and one does not get to see many Touring Berlinettas either, many have been rebuilt as something else. The Touring book has some nice drawings and photos, but my friend thinks many of the photos are assigned to wrong chassis numbers as part of the problem and the original bodies no longer exist or have been put on a different chassis.

    A lot of that can of course be found here on fchat in the “Classic” forum, very interesting cars IMO.

    Cheers!
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Pekka- All the Lampredi engine Ferraris were interesting and very low production. Those early 2+2 bodies were not particularly attractive, so understandable some were rebodied.
     
  23. belfry

    belfry Formula Junior

    May 14, 2015
    390
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robert Batt
    Here is a perspective from the UK.

    I have a 456 and a Mondial T, both blue and manual gearbox. I'va also had a 612 previously.

    I have a dear friend with a couple of 2 seater Ferraris and he really cannot understand the concept of a 2+2 Ferrari. For him the only to have is a 2 seater. he will not shift in his view; it's almost as if he has an inability to comprehend 4 seater Ferraris. I point out that Enzo drove a front engined V12 4 seater 330 but he looks back at me blankly.

    So for some people the Ferrari brand seems to be more based on a fantasy than historical accuracy. My friend would not own any 4 seater Ferrari at any price as it does not meet his projection of the Ferrari brand. I love the space that my 456 provides inside and i love the fact that this is the sort of model that Enzo preferred for his personal transport.
     
  24. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    So is he okay with a Porsche 911 back seat? I understand that emotion that he is experiencing. In fact, back in the 90’s when 456 came out I distinctly remembering the confused feeling I got looking that them in a magazine. To me a Ferrari was rear engine, and this car was not only front engine, but also had a back seat? Strange. But things got even more interesting when I glanced the spec sheet and saw the top speed, and the price! So, I get his perspective, but I think he might be wrong.
     
  25. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,252
    Eastdown
    Full Name:
    Darius
    One of the curiosities of Ferrari logic is that it has built fabulous 2+2s over its history, often as good or better to drive than corresponding two seaters. Usually the best 2+2s in the market at any given time.

    still, they are unloved compared to their siblings, always have been; and also compared to rivals. By Ferrari logic it’s normal that a 456 is cheaper than a standard 964, despite being in a different league as a car, and so much rarer.

    It’s more like the traditional saloon/sedan market.

    Ferrari collectors, the big ones, are not the people who buy 70s Japanese or Fords.

    I guess only possible real collector car among 2+2 Ferraris might (might) be a gated California. Not sure how much one of those would fetch. Between 4 and 7 built, depending on who you believe.
     

Share This Page