V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots | Page 24 | FerrariChat

V-12 Engine into 308 Build, over on Grassroots

Discussion in '308/328' started by dave80gtsi, Jan 16, 2019.

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  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    My shocks are also rebound adjust only, you can see that in the graphs I posted. The reason is that is the most important, rebound is the shocks or dampers main job. When you hit a bump you want the wheel to move up relatively freely to follow the ground but not so freely that it the momentum it gains allows it to leave the ground at the top. Compression damping if for that at the top transition and is basically got to do with the sprung to unsprung weight at the corner and very little to do with the actual springs.

    The rebound is about damping the spring while still allowing the wheel to move down fast enough to follow the pavement. the right number changes with speed, road conditions and such so if you're going to have an adjustment this is the one you want and really the only one I would regularly play with even when I had shocks with 4 knobs. The 1 is really low speed rebound, the other 3 would be high speed rebound and low/high compression. I will not pretend to be a damper expert...i only ever mess with low speed rebound.
     
  2. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
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    Many years ago my Ohlins guy explained rebound as "Your global damper setting, whereas high and low speed compression are your localised damper settings" :)
     
  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I went ahead and checked the torsional stiffness and my .25" was wrong,...1/2" for a GTS it looks like. I'll check it again once the engine is in to be sure that weight works the way I'm assuming it does. Pretty trivial with stock suspension but 20-25% on my setup....its actually less over bumps because the there is inertia but as you settle into a corner and are trying to use the sway bars to to move loads front to back is when it really comes into play so now the goal is keep the F/R roll stiffness as close to inherently balanced as possible so that bars are as close to equal as possible and the twist never happens....at least that is how it work in my simple mind.....

     
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  4. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Saturday was house work and Sunday honestly wasn't all that productive. I spent a total of about 3 recovering a a special bolt that holds the lower Steering u-joint. A bout a week ago I dropping it, it fell into the throttle pedal area which is actually a hole between the floor and belly pan and I hear it roll away. I jacket the car at crazy angles (which is part of why I went ahead and checked the torsional stiffness, I already had everything out to do it). I bought a new flexi magnet.....and eventually got it through a little access hole in the bottom...really boring.....

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    finished the final install of all the EPS steering stuff and dropped the pedal box in...and decided I wasn't happy with how close the clutch pedal was to the EPS unit. I didn't really ever love the clutch pedal position...it was sitting height than the foot rest but It was adjusted down to the end of the thread on the master.....so I ordered a new die to let me run the threads down a bit more. The will likely limit the travel of the master a bit, but I'm using a pedal stop to limit travel to protect the short throw hydraulic throw-out bearing anyway. So when the die arrives I'll get more foot room.

    Last was the stupid clutch switch...the cute little M8 switch is not a standard M8 so it didn't fit. With the pedal box out I decided enough screwing around and retapped it to accept a a 308 brake pedal switch and a little weld on the pedal arm to give it a place to hit. Fixed. The little allen bolt you can see in the second pic is the pedal stop...a bit neater than the standard bolt or block on the floor.

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  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Everything is back together on my, clutch pedal lowed a bit, new fluid and brakes bled and the pedal doesn't move 1/2". The EPS unit looks so small, but I was surprised how much space it takes from the pedals.....it seems ok...I'll need to drive it to be certain, you know, when I have an engine. I guess this is done until I drive it and decide if I want to change the feel in any way. (double post with the EPS thread but needed I think)

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  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #581 mk e, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
    The new front springs came, 6" long to replace the 7s I had figuring these are nearly double the stiffness so they will want to be shorter

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    ride height visually looks right at about 4.5" (which is about OEM stock if I'm not mistaken?) but I still need to look at a few thing to be sure this is ok as far as the suspension is concerned. I had to pull the rear wheel to get that sitting right for the photo op as there is no engine weight and 2" shorter springs I ordered are on back order.

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    it is jut about as low as I can go even with the shorter springs, about 3/8" travel left on the collars which is about 5/8" left to drop.

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    That said, I'm not so sure I get to decide that suspension rebuilding is a next winter project....it very honest looks like E36 M3. The the steering rack is leaking, the bellows torn, the rubber bit falling apart and showing every bit of their 37 years.

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  7. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #582 mk e, Apr 4, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    Took a couple minutes and pasted the pic from the manual into onsahpe. I started by just throwing on a few lines that are the given track to establish scale.

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    Then pasted in the pic eyeballing to my lines

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    Then eyeballed points at the suspension pivots and put lines through them....instant center 295.36mm

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    With a few dimensions added to fix the contact patch, a-arm lengths, upright and chassis a-arm mount distances and 1 to set the lower a-arm mount to ground (203.12 is where it came out in the manual drawing), I lowered the car 1" to 178mm

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    the instant center changes from 295 to 80mm....that does not seem ideal. ut I still need to mirror it to see what the roll center is doing. The lower chassis a-arm mounts are bolt-on and not quite long enough to get the camber up to 3 degrees (I'm told) so since I probably need to make new mounts anyway I'll spend a little (as in many hours :) ) figuring out exactly where the car is set now and fiddling with finding a good location for the lower a-arm mount height....which will no doubt mess up the bump steer.....its always something.

    Edit...roll center changed from 78.6 to 45mm not as bad I thought.
     
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  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Edit 2 - I typo'd the 1 inch drop in CAD....roll center drops from 78.6 to 26.4 for a 1 inch ride height drop
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I have been giving this a good deal of thought while preforming semi-mindless spring tasks around the house.....I think Put the springs on and call the suspension done enough to drive. Yes, the suspension bushings are in pretty poor condition but they are still there and I NEED to get the engine running. Next fall I'll likely build a new suspension. The 18in wheels give me a lot of space inside and the F430 rotors sit out much further than the 308 setup so I have a lot of room to reduce both the kingpin angle,scrub radius, and roll centers if I make new spindles and a-arms and if I make new a-arms I can get rid of all the silly rubber. I may still change my mind..... and cut the suspension apart now but I'll try to be strong.......



    I've got some thoughts on the frame and the just plain wrong location of silly little the factory fender flares....be.strong....you need and engine......
     
  10. Vonbarron

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    I’m thinking along the same lines as your thought process with regards to rebuilding bushings, I think I may wait, get the Outlaw running then start sorting. I hate the wait
     
  11. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Sitting in my amazon cart waiting for me to get the engine back together and need it is scale....I would love to know what this engine weights. I expect the eng/trans with everything I've done to weight about 800lbs, I'll be sad if its 1000 but that is certainly a possibility....but I'll get that number before the engine goes back in the car. This will help me decide what to do roll center wise whenever I decide to tear into the suspension for real.

    Installed the trans is sitting 1/4" higher that stock....it was that or notch the already soft frame to clear the flywheel. The engines crank though sits 2" lower and 3" forward of the the V8s so even with the added height of 60deg vs 90 and added weight 12 v 8, I'm pretty sure new mass center is lower and f/r split similar to stock or at least to the V8 with big supercharger that came out....but what to do suspension wise has been on my mind since I first bolted the 80 or 100 lbs of blower parts onto the top or the V8 and I'm clearly still undecided.

    New rear springs arrived yesterday, 6" to replace 8"

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    Siting with the adjusters full up so rear as low as possible here it is

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    Last time when I measured the front I was looking at the valance and getting about 4.5". last night I laid down on the floor and discovered 4.5" at the valance is about 3.25" at the frame so the front goes plenty low. Right now the frame in the back is at 4.5" with no engine. If the engine is 1000lbs with exhaust and everything and the spring 500lb/in each and nearly 1:1 motion ratio the rear will be 3.5" full low so I guess it works out as this might work at an autocross but is too low for street use.

    I can rise it about 2" which would be just about stock or perhaps a touch over so these springs seem good length wise.
     
  12. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Hmmmmm...
    Stock engine plant is roughly 500lbs, seem to recall a shipping weight for a complete engine with exhaust at 575. Guesstimate... For additional 4 cylinders... 125-150 extra lbs..
    So.. 650-700 tops..
    Only engine gearbox I've ever delt with that was over 1k, maybe the TR... But for sure the Diablo... Needed a fork lift!
    Be really surprised if it weighs more then 800lb.
    It's a mini TR...
    The TR utilizes dual shocks in the rear... Yeah 4 for just the rear end.
     
  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    1st, springs went from 10 to 8" not to 6"...you can see that on the part numbers but 7 or 6 are length options if its not sitting where I want it after the engine goes in.

    2nd, I sure hope the engine/trans are not over 800 but I'll get numbers so I know...not that knowing changes anything...it is what it is at this point but at least I'll know.

    3rd, Still no lapping bar, mcmaster website has said "delivering this week" all week. This is a problem in that at this point the "bill" for car time has come due and must be paid. I'm looking at 12-16 weeks of construction in a perfect world which is probably double that in my world......not sure how much car time I can slide in but I'll try......
     
  14. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    This morning I was out putting down weed&feed. Its kind of earlier but last year while building walls, regrade, and such I really let it go so I decided to hit the show parts of the lawn now then the whole lawn in a month at normal time. I like to do the fed&feed first thing in the morning when the grass is damp so the stuff sticks....don't know if it actually helps but I've always believed it does so I use the push spreader not to wake the family with the tow spreader making the job slow and boring and giving me an uninterrupted hour to pond Ferrari 308 chassis design and I believe I had an epiphany.....the frames are actually pretty well designed but aren't finished.

    Let me explain. If you look at the FSAE frame I posted its a space frame which means it made straight pieces of tubing and EVERY external opening is a triangle, EVERY node is supported in 3 dimensions. This means all the frame member are in tensions or compression with virtually no bending loads, the only exception is the suspension mounts which weren't designed yet when I did the frame and honestly none of us were very sure about how to design it so I used heavy members there to allow freedom to make changes.Even the cockpit opening is a triangle which is important becasue removing just the 2 bars that go over the driver's shoulder to triangulate the cockpit reduced the frames torsional stiffness by a factor 3...so remove those 2 pieced the weight about 2 lbs and you have 1/3 the stiffness you started with. So that is a space frame, wonderful for a race car but clearly worthless for a street car and as a result street cars do not have space frames.

    Street cars, and here I mean older street cars that have defined frames all have a version of a ladder frame....2 main rails with cross members. Even most of the new monoque (stressed skin, no real frame) stuff uses ladder like supports. A 308 frame is made this way. With a ladder frame there really is no clever way to keep things in tension/compression so the only way to make it stronger is to just make all the part bigger and heavier....I had a '65 vette and its frame tubes were about double the width of the 308 frame, at least from memory.....the 308 frame is pretty spindly really and ferrari use the exact same frame in the 288GTO (just a 4" stretch in the engine bay) and and the same frame on the F40.....

    .....why I wonder? They had to know it was a POS when even a casual observer can look at it say WTF were they thinking? so why?

    Racing rules.

    Every sanctioning body has cage requirements that mandate, imho, ridiculously heavy cages built in semi-foolish ways. They do that so its easy to tech and hard to screw up so anything you bring that meets the rules is safe. Take a street car, remove nothing structural, add all this new stuff. Everybody needs to follow the rules so it doesn't matter that all the cars are 200-300lbs heavier than they could be, the racing is fair and everyone is safe.

    So what does Ferrari, a company who sell street cars to pay for their race program do? They design a nice bottom section of a cage with very little consideration of street performance to make the frame as light as they can get way with knowing old men driving on the street will never notice the flex (this is no doubt also way the stock springs were so soft, to help hide the frame flex issues) and the racers will add a cage, finishing the frame, and have a lighter, faster race car than anyone starting with a car designed as a good street car who then is forced to carry the heavy street frame around the race track.

    So they were either incredibly competent or incredibly incompetent. I'm going will they were brilliant.....doesn't help me with my flexi street car issues but it does make a lot of sense. For me, where a cage is not happening there is a bit of a challenge. The front wheels are basically at the front os the passenger compartment so there is little to nothing to be gained up front leaving the engine bay and passenger compartment. with both causing about 1/2 the flex.

    The engine bay I can cage. Once the engine is back in I'll design something to bolt on top. On the FSAE frame I reamed the holes and used shoulder bolts on ends of the engine access tubes and that working out pretty well so I'm thinking something along those lines but beefier to deal with the bending loads I didn't have then but will have now.

    The passenger compartment.....the only answer is more metal. There is lots of room in the rocker panels but I need to figure out what to do with the cross members....there is a double floor where I lost that steering bolt a couple weeks ago, for sure I can replace that with something quite rigid....I need to model it up and play with it....in my spare time......
     
  15. Vonbarron

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  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The MAT effort was mentioned a bit ago and somebody sent it to me
    http://www.mat.fi/projects/59
    http://www.mat.fi/gallery/56

    I looked through it but will need to spent a bit more time staring at everything. Pretty sure they are working with an older, '76 I think, chassis that is a tiny bit different from mine.

    I think too, and I might be wrong, that they are working with the original homologation specs and saying they need to make changes because the FIA cage rules have changed.....which may limit what they are allowed to change. I say that because they have some obvious misses like they have a couple diagonals added to the side of the engine bay (red in pic below) but to triangulate the top or bottom so the side pieces add bending strength but little torsional stiffness because the flex just moves to the weakest link location. Similar issue up front although probably less critical since the front is shorter length but still I'd want to get what there is to get and they didn't it doesn't look like so I suspect a rules issue.

    Something to note, the bodywork clearly does nothing on their setup other than look pretty, its not structural in any way so Targa or coupe body you'd get the same answer.

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  17. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 F1 Rookie
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    Can you please tell me what Ferrari your seats are from ? If they fit in a 308 they should fit in my 328 , they look maybe from a 348 ? I would like to source a pair for my car. If they take custom brackets, I would gladly pay you to make a set if it comes to that.

    Thank you
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Yes, 348, TS iirc. I made an adapter for the bottom. I'm planning to swap them out at some point so make an offer :)
     
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Nice. Now add more triangles...... and keep adding triangles until there is no place left to make them. you have a whole lot of rectangles at the moment and each rectangle needs to become 2 triangles. The diagonals can often be pretty light...this bare frame was 28lbs.....basically all .028" wall tubing and it could be that light because it was entirely triangles.
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  20. greg288

    greg288 Karting

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    There were actually more triangles going to the rear member that were cut off because I had to shorten things for the body as well as more triangles beside the motor that were cut out due to header considerations:(
    Not to mention there was a full interior cage that I am just too old to deal with at this point:p
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Dude...you are never to old to appreciate triangles :)

    Seriously though, I'm not d!*king with the interior space in my car either, I'm just not, its a street car. Back in the engine bay I will put some effort in once I get to that point. Shear panels are a suitable replacement for triangles and you cut holes in them for headers and such.

    The plan forming in my head is a mix. the cabin will be a ladder frame, just a stronger one. The front and rear will mostly become space frames (triangles) but there will be shear panels replacing diagonals here and there....like the whole bottom of the car for example. I'm still working through it all in my mind....but its starting to jell.
     
  22. ginoBBi512

    ginoBBi512 F1 Rookie
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    Ok,I want them , let me know what you think is fair, I have a question, does your adapter raise the seats higher than the stock bracket on my 328 seats or your 308 seats I should say, that would be an accurate measurement for me , Im just under 6 feet and do not want the seats to be any higher ?

    Thank you

    If you want Mke, if you get the time, I know your very busy, maybe shoot some pics, thank you so much
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    email me, [email protected]
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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