458 - Intermittent Brake Failure - Fixed. | FerrariChat

458 Intermittent Brake Failure - Fixed.

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ilko, Apr 5, 2021.

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  1. ilko

    ilko Karting

    Aug 20, 2008
    150
    I purchased a 2010 458 with 28K miles a few months ago from a Ferrari dealership. The day after the car was delivered I went out on a mountain drive to get familiar with it and at one point the power assist function in the brakes failed. The pedal was firm, the car was slowing but barely, not nearly at the rate you'd expect. Thankfully I was able to downshift several times and slow it down enough. The rest of the drive was uneventful but that episode made me feel uneasy, to say the least.

    I've also noticed that the brakes didn't work well immediately after a cold start in the garage and moving a few feet. When I pressed the brake pedal the car was hard to stop, even though it was barely moving.

    When I informed the dealership that there is a problem with the brakes they told me that Ferrari ceramic brakes feel different than other cars' brakes and I should just get used to them. I also own a 997 GT3RS w ceramic brakes and I know they don't perform to their fullest when cold, but the brakes on the Ferrari were just not up to par.

    The 458 brake system is pretty simple and a common automotive design. It uses vacuum pressure from the intake manifold to activate the brake servo (booster) which pushes the piston of the master cylinder delivering brake fluid at high pressure to the brakes. The hard lines from the intake have several check valves. Those are generally known to fail over time by not providing enough vacuum to the brake booster. The other failure point is the master cylinder. The seal can leak brake fluid into the brake booster, damaging the diaphragm inside.

    I didn't want to wait for months to receive parts one at a time, so I ordered the hoses with the integrated check valves along with a new booster and master cylinder.

    I first replaced the vacuum line, which had to be snaked behind the engine and around the alternator. Not exactly an easy task, but it was doable. That unfortunately didn't solve the problem. I then had to tear up the front end of the car to get to the booster. The cool part of working on the 458 is that it's very much like a race car in terms of how it's built. It's basically a space frame chassis with beams criss-crossing to make the tub. that makes removing pieces of the car a lot of fun.

    When I finally got to the booster I discovered that indeed, there was a small pool of brake fluid in it, leaked by a failed master cylinder seal. Once those parts were replaced and I got everything buttoned up I went for a test drive.

    Night and day difference in brake feel and stopping! It used to be jerky, either on or off, stiff pedal, now the pedal is softer, easier to modulate and feel the brakes. Now I can finally begin to properly enjoy the car.

    I'm posting this here because I hope it gives clarity to people who are experiencing the same symptoms.
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  2. matt lane

    matt lane Rookie

    Jul 17, 2007
    41
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Matthew Lane
    Amazing work Ilko. I was feeling your pain - a 'new' ride, from a dealer, needs brakes LOL.

    Nice job sorting it out, now you can drive in confidence. Plus, you learned a lot too.

    We'll continue to share notes for sure.

    Cheers

    Matt
     
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  3. matt lane

    matt lane Rookie

    Jul 17, 2007
    41
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Matthew Lane
    And great pics. Thanks for sharing.
     
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  4. Bad Boys 1

    Bad Boys 1 Karting

    Mar 22, 2020
    90
    Full Name:
    Michael M
    What was your final cost for repair?
     
  5. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
    16,445
    ON
    Full Name:
    CH

    2008 is a long time here. Thanks for sharing this very useful diagnosis with pictures here! Should be a STICKY!!!
     
  6. ilko

    ilko Karting

    Aug 20, 2008
    150
    The vacuum hose was $175 and the booster/mc was $450. Not including tax and shipping. And I used two cans of brake fluid just to make sure the system is thoroughly flushed...
     
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  7. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
    Full Name:
    A.B
    Nice. Ypu should go back to the dealer and show them the failed parts, and then ask how they think that relates to how Ferrari ceramic brakes feel.

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  8. craze

    craze Formula 3

    Mar 5, 2021
    1,026
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Thanks for sharing
     
  9. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Typical dealer games


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  10. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Do your breaks squeak as well? Mine sound like a grayhound bus anytime I pull up to a stop light.


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  11. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Invaluable information to all 458 owners.

    Thank you very much for sharing.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno
     
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  12. dgunn365

    dgunn365 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    250
    New London, NH
    Full Name:
    David Gunn
    Just fyi; I get a low level "sequel" from my brakes on the first stop from a cold start; no noise after that; and they work well.
     
  13. AvechuchoAxel

    AvechuchoAxel Rookie

    Dec 28, 2008
    20
    Yeah, my bet is just there... BRAKE BOOSTER leaking pressure ( not fluid) It will deplete pressure overnight or after few hours. That's why at cold start your brakes are irresponsible.
     
  14. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    INDEED very useful ! Thanx for sharing !
     
  15. docf

    docf Formula 3

    Sep 14, 2008
    1,352
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Gary
    Great post. Thanks!
     
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  16. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Does this fix the issue of the current recall?
     
  17. ilko

    ilko Karting

    Aug 20, 2008
    150
    It most definitely does.

    Keep in mind though, that Ferrari has not come up with an official fix. That's because they are now going back and forth with Bosch to find out the root cause of the leakage. The question is whether the seals in the brake master cylinder are prone to leakage. Did Bosch get a bad batch of seals, or were they fitted improperly, or is there another reason for the seal failure?

    So when Ferrari comes up with an official fix I plan to take my car in to have it done again, free of charge. In the meantime I've got the only self-recalled 458 and am enjoying it to the fullest without worrying about the brakes failing! ;)
     
  18. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    Sounds right to me. I met a 488 owner who I’m sure has a similar problem. Booster likely has a small leak and never builds enough vacuum to provide enough assist. Naturally, the dealer told him there was nothing wrong and that these are “racing brakes” that don’t develop a lot of brake torque until they get really hot. I tried to tell him this was BS, and that my brakes work fine at street temps. But he’s convinced it’s because I “only” have a 458! I just hope he doesn’t crash and hurt someone due to his arrogance.


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  19. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    You sir, are head and shoulders above Ferrari engineers and deserve an award for this. You were literally more than 7 months ahead of Ferrari with knowledge of this and the recall.

    You are admitted to the FerrariChat hall of fame, accompanied by other greats like Il Co Pilota, Marcel Massini, and RayJohns.


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  20. FerrariCognoscenti

    FerrariCognoscenti Formula 3

    Jan 19, 2021
    2,429
    East Coast
    Can you confirm if you modified anything to prevent the leaking into the booster, or was this a simple 1 to 1 swap for a new booster?


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  21. todd cloud

    todd cloud Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2019
    877
    Full Name:
    Todd
    will this happen again over time?
    same booster
    if there is a design flaw?
     
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  22. ilko

    ilko Karting

    Aug 20, 2008
    150
    Lol thanks :cool:

    I didn't modify anything, just replaced the master cylinder and booster, which Ferrari sells bolted together as one unit.

    That I don't know.

    The booster is not faulty, the master cylinder is.

    Generally if a part is improved after the car has been released for sale, the part number changes and gets superseded with a new part number, one digit up. At least that's been my experience wrenching on Porsches over the years. I suspect Ferrari might want to do the same once they "figure out what the problem is" so that people have a peace of mind that they are installing a revised version of the master cylinder.
     
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  23. RayJohns

    RayJohns F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 21, 2006
    7,398
    West Coast
    Full Name:
    Ray
    Nice work there ilko!

    I just wanted to comment regarding leaks and master cylinders.

    On my 1990 Toyota pickup project, I designed and fabricated my own custom Wilwood 4 wheel disc brake upgrade. One aspect of all this was installing a new master cylinder, which - like the Ferrari - employs a vacuum powered booster. I used a brand new AISIN master cylinder (which is basically the best Japanese OEM cylinder you can buy, short of opting for some sort of custom brand, such as Wilwood or Tilton, etc.).

    Anyway, after about 1000 miles, I noticed brake fluid leaking down on my header. At first, I couldn't figure out where the leak was coming from, because I thought it was motor oil, not brake fluid. However, after a little more searching, I realized it was coming out of my brand new master cylinder and dripping down the booster and then down onto the exhaust system. WTH? Brand new master cylinder and it's already leaking?

    So I removed everything and disassembled the master cylinder (pic below) in order to see why it was leaking. What I discovered was that AISIN (I guess during assembly) had put quite a noticeable amount of synthetic grease inside the inner lip of the main seal on the master cylinder. I understand why they did this: it helps installation of the seal without damage; I used to install all my seals like this as well.

    However, over the years, I have noticed something: the inclusion of any sort of grease inside the lip of critical seals almost always results in them leaking after a while. I've had this happen on transmission output seals, front main seals, brake master cylinder seals, you name it.

    I'm not sure if this is something new that AISIN has started to do? Maybe new people working at AISIN just are not really well versed on whether or not using grease (in this case, far too much) could result in leaking post installation. What I do know is that when it comes to installing seals, it's always better to install them without any sort of grease inside the inner lip (usually just a very light coat of oil works best). Using any sort of grease (especially too much) generally only serves to prevent the seal from fully sealing.

    Anyway, sure enough, after cleaning out the grease from the seal on the AISIN master cylinder, I put everything back together and reinstalled the booster and master. To this day, the master cylinder has remained perfectly dry, no leaks whatsoever.

    I wonder if Ferrari is using grease on their seals and this practice is sometimes inadvertently ending up causing a leak?

    Ray

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  24. ilko

    ilko Karting

    Aug 20, 2008
    150
    Thank you Ray! The master cylinder and booster come as one unit bolted together and are both made by Bosch. The seals had already been installed by the supplier before the parts arrived in Maranello. All the Ferrari technicians at the factory had to do was connect the booster to the pedal and the master cylinder to the brake lines. I see this as a Bosch problem.
     
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