812 VS Rumors | Page 238 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    climate neutral e-fuels never will happen in the general sense

    currently they only have a single plant in Chile, maybe 550millon L (about 140m gallons) per year, sure, enough for racing, but that's it. And due to distance it would shipped via ocean cargo...rendering the entire exercise completely moot (due to 'co2' shipping produces unless they burn a lot of that fuel for shipping, which they could...)

    "The fuel is sourced from the Haru One pilot plant in Chile that Porsche announced late last year. The plant uses wind-generated electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then combined with atmospheric carbon dioxide to produce methanol, which in turn forms the basis for synthetic fuel"


    The problem is, for street cars, there would be no method to ensure "synthetic fuels" are actually being used, and there would be insufficient capacity to provide for all fuels at all petrol stations to have such fuel....so, it's never going to happen, not to mention the insane cost, maybe 20euro+ (35$ USD+) per gallon before taxes...

    In the EU about 1.042 billion liters of gasoline/diesel are used each DAY and this plant will product about a half day's usage but take an entire year to produce it...

    And, another problem is the EU regulators have not agreed to this at all...there's no point
     
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  2. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,286
    Le caylar (France)
    Full Name:
    mathieu Jeantet
    Thanks for the explanation.
     
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  3. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,504
    Earth
    Nope - I drove it and other than "Tesla" like straight line speed it was not special enough for me to buy one.
     
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  4. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
    16,445
    ON
    Full Name:
    CH
    :(
     
  5. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    No Tesla can do 0-200 kph in 6.5'', so that's inaccurate. But I hear you and I respect your view. You seem to be in the minority though.
     
  6. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany

    The current assumptions are that once produced at scale synthetic fuels can be at around 1€ (excl. taxes) per litre in 10 years’ time.

    What is needed is a continuously increasing statutory quota for the addition of synthetic components to fuels at filling stations. In this way, the production quantities can slowly increase, which has a positive effect on the price development. That would be a sensitive way of keeping costs in check at the beginning, right through to the point when the gasoline from the pump is 100% synthetic. What should be clear is that change will not come for free.

    The rationale behind is that once you understand that production can be anywhere in the world, as the liquids can easily be stored and shipped around, you have in theory unlimited resources of easy to handle green energy. That also makes the whole discussion around energy efficiency superfluous as the energy needed for synthetic fuels does not compete with the local available energy that is better used in BEVs directly.
     
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  7. cesman

    cesman Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 13, 2008
    746
    London, UK
    Full Name:
    Craig
    100% it is insane looking though - I saw the racing version mock-up at Geneva a few years ago. The aero is crazy. However nothing seems to come near Gordon Murray’s approach to creating a road going race car - the F1 and the GMA T50 are still very practical and usable whilst still offering extreme performance. Almost unmatched by anyone else in terms of weight, packaging and performance combined.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    First, I need to correct this:
    maybe 20euro+ (35$ USD+) per gallon before taxes
    to read:
    maybe 30euro+ (35$ USD+) per gallon before taxes
    (corrected the math)

    As for "statutory quotas", that's if there is such a regulation in the first place.

    and, to understand, the EU regulatory commissions have no such plan at any stage of concept/development, nothing...for road transport...the EU commissions firmly believe sufficient alternatives exist now (i.e. EV) so they apparently have no interest in "liquid green fuels" for road transport...

    so, if the EU is not going to recognize, there is no point at all, none (other than race teams who want to use it as there will be sufficient production, at exceptionally high prices to accommodate)

    Let me know if you hear of any EU plans to move in that direction.
     
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  9. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
    Full Name:
    A.B
    Not sure what you mean by electric turbocharger. Do you mean electric supercharger? A turbocharger is a turbine driven supercharger, so if you remove the turbine, you are no longer dealing with a turbocharger.

    If you want to add electrics, doing it directly to the crank or wheels are by far the most effichent way, so I don't see the reason why they would run an electric compressor. The compressor stage alone robs about 10%, or more when at slower rpm. When the electric mktjr is mounted directly to either the crank or wheels, there are virtually no loss. Don't firget that if they run electric superchargers, those will have to be at least 100 hp each. It takes a lot of power to create boost on an engine that already makes big power. If you have 200 hp driving two compressors, I'd be surprised if the net output on the crank would be more than 150 hp. Add one small 200 hp motor to the crank, and resonse will be insanely explosive and the added output will not only be super consistent, but also virtually 100% efficient. There's a reason why electric assisted cars get that power from either the crank or wheels, and that is because it is the most responsive and efficient.

    No way are they using electric superchargers or electrically assisted turbochargers.

    The only place you see that is in some pretty obscure aftermarket situations.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  10. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Additionally, please recall the actual intent of the EU commision:
    https://epha.org/new-euro7-standards-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-for-polluting-vehicles/

    "The new Euro 7/VII standards will contribute to a modal shift from car-based cities to walking, cycling, and public transport, wherever possible. These are the healthiest, the less polluting and the most efficient transport options. Non-internal combustion engines should be preferred over conventional fossil fuel-powered vehicles because they are non-exhaust emission sources."

    And then realize that whatever e-fuels Porsche is working on...still are emitting pollutants, they are not zero...
    https://asiatimes.com/2021/02/can-efuel-keep-your-classic-car-on-the-road/

    "Compared to pump fuel, eFuels emit fewer particulates and nitrogen oxide as well."

    So, I presume the EU regulatory bodies will never consider green e-Fuels (the overall idea of is balanced CO2 emissions; not zero emissions) for road transport.
     
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  11. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany

    The EU as many other institutions have been mainly focusing on BEVs, that’s true. However even if their taxonomy suggests they are ZERO emission vehicles, we all know they are not. E-mobility comes with too many issues to cover the major part of our mobility needs. So I personally don’t see the long term success of an all-electric future. E-mobility is here to stay; there are many uses cases where it’s desirable, viable and feasible. It’s no panacea though.

    It seems that the EU is also recognising that their might be different solutions to become “sustainable”. Let’s wait for the Revision of EU’s Renewable Energy Directive this year:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/revising-the-eu-taxonomy-to-fuel-the-journey-towards-industrial-decarbonization/
     
  12. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    ....shift from car-based cities to walking, cycling, and public transport, wherever possible....
    Well Europe doesn't exist of cities only. Plus at this point we aren't talking about powertrains anymore....

    Wait and electric BEVs are not responsible for any emissions at all .....??
     
  13. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,504
    Earth
    Not sure I am as when it comes to plonking down the $s and getting serious I am sure many others couldn't commit either. BTW: I went ahead on the 765LTS without question and cant wait to spec it :)
     
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  14. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,504
    Earth
    Funny thing is using EV or Hydrogen to power trucks seems a way better strategy to massively reduce the EU's C02. Look at the congestion on the Autobahn or Auto Strada in terms of trucks. Thats where I would be concentrating and companies like Nikola/Iveco are powering ahead in this space.
     
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  15. Jonathan19

    Jonathan19 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 13, 2017
    1,092
    France
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    Jonathan
    There is a rumor circulating for an April 8th unveiling, anyone have any information on this? Or is it just wrong?
     
  16. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
    8,923
    Paris , France
    Full Name:
    Olivier
    Our resident well informed source said April 21, so I do believe that's gonna be the right date, but If that awful wait can be shortened a bit, I'm here !!
     
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  17. Jonathan19

    Jonathan19 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 13, 2017
    1,092
    France
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    Jonathan
    Ok thanks, April 21 seems so far away.
     
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  18. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 3, 2012
    3,053
    UK
    EV is a non-starter for trucks unless you can get battery weight down massively. As weight increases, payload decreases, meaning more trucks/journeys required, more CO2 (still have to produce the electricity and batteries to store it) and more cost. You can’t increase Gross Train Weight because you break all the bridges and roads. Hydrogen is a better idea. In fact, I think hydrogen is a better idea all-round although still has its issues. First among which is the fact that it still can’t be done cost-effectively. Seems to me diesel is here for quite a while yet for HGVs.
     
  19. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 2, 2005
    2,504
    Earth
    Check out https://nikolamotor.com/

    Nel / Iveco / Nikola - seem to have a great solution
     
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  20. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    248
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco
    Obviously who was able to test it, was so excited by testing that is normal even for a standard car or he was new owner then obviously is excited trying to find an excuse he paid so much money . IMHO it doesn’t mean anything . Few persons were able to test both F90 and 812 SF and mainly they agreed V12 N/A is unique
     
  21. Newjoint

    Newjoint Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2016
    1,070
    There is really no CO2 negative fuel except for electricity made from nuclear solar and wind.
    Even they have big environmental trade offs- radioactive waste, heavy metals needing mining, bird kills etc let alone construction costs. Of these options nuclear is the only one that can give the needed amount and reliability but the environmentalists deem it a nonstarter.
    Where did I put that warp drive and I know I have my dilithium crystals somewhere...


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  22. Newjoint

    Newjoint Formula 3

    Jan 17, 2016
    1,070
    Getting back on topic- I would love the VS to do the AMG Black Series one better- a new Ring record for front engine cars and while they are at it the 812 replacement to be something totally unexpected from Ferrari like a front midengine carbon tub car that weighs 3000 pounds wet- a hyperGT using the VS engine.
    As much as I would love a regular production series midengine V12 from Ferrari I’ll settle for the above


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  23. JagShergill

    JagShergill Formula 3

    Dec 31, 2014
    1,661
    England
    Full Name:
    Jag shergill
    On a technical point the Dilithium crystals need a level 4 diagnostic before the magnetic drive ignites Full Ion Transfer - thankfully the time dilation at warp speed means that using this tech , the Ferrari LMH wins the day before the rest start to race .....
     
  24. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,586
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    No settlement for you. Ferrari doesn't care about record times and doesn't do CF tubs on production cars. Tweaks, flaps and gills, CF panel, and at least one new tech are basically the VS standard.
     
  25. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Only the Germans care about that so called "track"...



    Beg to differ. The Quantum Engine supersedes the Ion Superflaxitronics Capacitor and as a result the Mega Drive engages when the Solar Matrix reaches a Value of more than 1 Dondle, divided by the Universal Constant. Elementary really,...
     
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