What does a Marcel Massini report convey? | FerrariChat

What does a Marcel Massini report convey?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 96redLT4, Mar 13, 2021.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
    507
    California
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I know Marcel is a member of this board and I always have respected and enjoyed his opinions. He has a treasure trove of information Ferrari related. I always thought these reports signified absolute authenticity of a car and its upgrades over the years. Some of these old cars have had modifications/improvements eg replacement of the 'mouse hair' dash covers and still are certified. How does it compare to a car being Classiche certified? Here is an example of a really cool car with this pedigree currently on BaT

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-ferrari-365-gtb4-daytona/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2021-03-13
     
  2. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,839
    France
    Others will certainly provide more insightful comments but my understanding is that a Massini report will provide information about the history of a car's life while a factory Classiche certification will mainly focus on conformity to the original specifications.
     
    Jack-the-lad, Daytonafan and 96redLT4 like this.
  3. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
    4,781
    CT
    #3 BJK, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  4. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,737
    #4 Marcel Massini, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    Please note that the seller obtained the Massini Report illegally and not from me. He is not authorized to publish this anywhere and not on BaT. A typical Bill Noon "stunt".
    I was neither asked nor compensated. And the report is incomplete.
    Oh well.
    What a world we live in today.

    Here's 15285 as built originally. I took this is in February 1992 when 15285 was owned by a friend of mine in Switzerland.
    Since then the side markers have been removed, the orange blinkers replaced with white-orange ones, car has been repainted re-sale red, etc.

    Marcel Massini

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. 96redLT4

    96redLT4 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2009
    507
    California
    Full Name:
    Jim
    #5 96redLT4, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2021
    Thank you Marcel. So I guess the report 'authenticates' the car for the current owner but may not be accurate later as subsequent owners fix and modify things to their liking. It certainly seems to convey an added value and respect at the time of sale.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  6. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,120
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    #6 MS250, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
    Why are these reports chargeable - isn’t this suppose to be a service to the community of owners.

    after all, everyone asks for Vins and details from people for free all the time. Does this mean the classique from a few years ago are considered invalid too down the road. Then what’s the purpose of doing any of this.

    Ferrari used to give the heritage certificate for free until they decided not to and try and find another revenue stream. Too bad these things have to play out this way.
    Another resale red Daytona - shameful
     
    tomgt likes this.
  7. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    If you are speaking of what Marcel provides, there is a huge difference in getting a vin and a few details and getting Marcel's report on a vehicle. He's spent a goodly portion of his adult life collecting data, sorting it, cataloging it, confirming and validating it and hell yes he should charge for it.

    If CARFAX can charge for the work they do, then whatever Marcel charges, in comparison is both a bargain and a 1000X improvement over a simple insurance/service history.

    D
     
    NGooding, Alex1015, NYC Fred and 17 others like this.
  8. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    5,137
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Timo
    o_O
    Why consultation from CPAs, Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers/Mechanics/Technicians/Shops or anyone providing "Professional" services of any kind should be "chargeable ?
    Do you expect their specialty education/experience/knowledge to be provided for free (!!!) "to the community" ?
    Do you offer your (professional ?) "services"(whatever they may be) or work for (your ?) community for free ? :confused:
    Just (mildly) curious.
     
    tres55, NGooding, Zanny1 and 9 others like this.
  9. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,120
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    my observation was around the lack of standards for these cars. Nothing more, nothing less - professional services that offer value are always chargeable in any profession. That’s not what I was implying.

    let me phrase It another way. If a car wins coppa Bella 5 yrs before, does that negate the car 5 yrs later ? No, it was a snap shot of that point in time and part of its history. If a classique was preformed 10yrs ago - is that invalid ? Where is the line drawn on these reports then? Same with the carfax.

    the heritage certificate that was free from Ferrari years ago, is that no longer worthy or valid. Obviously, all these cars have info, and complied. Whether accurate today, that’s another topic of discussion. All I was referring too, I was referring to ViN collection as an example only.

    If someone provides a service, of course they should get paid for it! That’s not what I said.
     
    tomgt, bertrand328 and Jack-the-lad like this.
  10. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    7,573
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Yes, the limitation of the Classiche report is that it applies to a particular point in time - when the car was presented for certification, and compares that against the records that Ferrari have. It doesn't cover the whole history of the car, which a Massini report will encompass.
    If I were contemplating buying a signifcant car, I'd want a Massini report first. If the Massini report comes up clean on the history/ authenticty, then I would expect the Ferrari Classiche certification to be a formality.
    M
     
    mcimino, SonomaRik, tritone and 2 others like this.
  11. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
    Honorary

    Jun 19, 2012
    1,807
    Let's go back to the original question. In the last month, I purchased a "Report" from Marcel for a 225 Sport I am working on. The report included over 141 photos (some in very high detail) of the car including early races, events, and all throughout its life up to the present day (where else would you get that?), copies of the Factory Build Sheets (that he happened to have), Italian Registration Paperwork, and Marcel's own researched history of the car from the beginning up to the present day. Obviously, every Ferrari will have more or less information available from Marcel, as newer cars have, by definition, less history. Production street cars will probably have more information available regarding colors, interiors, than very early race cars. It was not cheap, but very fairly priced for all the material to be available in one place without me having to spend hours of my time and my clients money searching all over the world. Along with the "report" also comes Marcels willingness to continue to help with any further questions and research on the car.
     
  12. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    7,573
    Full Name:
    Mike
    No it's not necessarily invalid, but the car as presented "today" should be the same as the photos shown the Classiche book.
    I think some buyers don't look past the wording "classiche certified" before handing over their $$$. There are stories of cars having correct components borrowed from other cars just for the classiche process......

    The "free" heritage certificates stopped in 2004, but all one needed to do was provide the engine and gearbox # online through the owners site and a few weeks later you could download a pdf with the build date and original colour (provided the information supplied matched Ferraris records). As the data was provided by the applicant, and not checked by a 3rd party, it was open to misuse.
    M
     
    96redLT4 likes this.
  13. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,677
    The very first line in your post was, Why are these reports chargeable - isn’t this suppose to be a service to the community of owners.
     
    dm_n_stuff and Rifledriver like this.
  14. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,120
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    yes, I did , if a report is on a car already, is there another fee now as a royalty that is not transferable to new owners going down the line now? Does that mean if Ferrari doesn’t do the heritage certificate anymore they can call them invalid? If a car wins coppa Bella and it’s resold two times and it’s with the car can the judges come back and say you didn’t win it with the car therefore it’s invalid coppa Bella for you? Is that still not history of the car that should go with the car?

    how is this car in question for sale with paper and the writer of it is saying it’s invalid? If it’s invalid, is this not misleading by the seller? How is this even possible. Does this not worry anyone if buying a car that this is becoming questionable? What does this mean with the ad that it’s copyright 2020 ??? Did you see the ad?
     
  15. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    7,573
    Full Name:
    Mike
    The report is copyright to the author and is provided to the person who requested it for their own use. Their rights to re-sell, re-publish etc are limited by the T&C's they agreed to.
     
    SonomaRik, LVP488 and Lusso123 like this.
  16. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,120
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    ahhh - now, that makes sense. Ok, that wasn’t clear. Can’t read that print. Thank you for explaining it. If it’s not transferable or allowed and the author has that clause, it’s their right. This is what wasnt making sense to me when the report says Nov 2020 ... if the author has this clause in his TC , then it makes sense, and has a right to call it out. Thank you for taking the time explaining this to me / and others that had the same question. Carry on
     
    Boomhauer likes this.
  17. mlgtoeng

    mlgtoeng Rookie

    Jul 1, 2010
    34
    Don’t regard Marcel with any scepticism he is a passionate historian and a consummate professional. Yes, sometime he has to say things that people don’t want to hear but I have been around Ferraris for over 40 years firstly in restoration and then later every part of the business including inspecting and advising on purchases and sales including numerous GTO’s SWB, LM’s and 50’s sport/racing cars along with innumerable road cars. I have had the privilege of physically inspecting his archives and alway respected his memory and knowledge. Certainly his report adds value and in the case of a transaction, greatly reduces risk. The benefits are enjoyed long after the price is forgotten.
     
  18. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2010
    547
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    I think people mistakenly think that the "one-or-two-page rap sheet" that sellers like to post is what a "Massini Report" is. While I imagine that in the case of something like a bread-and-butter Daytona, that level of info/detail might be all that is available, in some cases, the real report is a folder with a lot of info in it.

    I once was looking over a car that had the full folder as something that came with it. I was shocked when I saw all the pics, etc...

    Regarding Classiche, while their reports can be a little "spoty", generally, they will note when dashes don't have mousehair, and the like.

    For the car that the OP cited, Classiche probably would note that the car was a US example that had been externally "Euro-ized", and that the emissions gear was missing, but might not bother to point-out some of the US stuff that was still on the car, as these lingering features are technically "correct" for its original spec (though not right for what some owner was trying to make the car look like... :)).
     
    miurasv and 96redLT4 like this.
  19. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    It is sad to see a professional dealer - whom I happened to know- bought happily 3 cars from him and sold him one- use in violation of copyright the work done by others , in this case Marcel Massini. Not a big deal to give Marcel a call or send him an email and ask conditions for an updated report and permission to forward to new owner.
    Of course we know that MM most important contribution is on historic research for cars of complex history, specially race or unique cars, and books. And personally I have used his services many times because he has an incredible archive regarding Ferrari, that he bought and is using for the research he produces. This does not prevent me for also permanently looking at other archives and if I find them, buying original pictures for cars I have .
    It is true that a normal production car is not that complex, but still the research he has done to produce the summary history , is protected. So I cannot see why there is a reason for anyone not to respect this. As a matter of principle. But whoever is going to buy this car, if it sells and is a real collector, will be glad to put it back in its original condition and livery , and get all the possible info of the car’s earlier history, and for this he may need MM who knew in this case some of the previous owners of the car.
    This work allows MM to contribute more than anyone else to forums like this one, sharing this time for free, and within the limits of copyright, what he can share on the history of cars.
    So we should be grateful for his contribution and refrain when we can to violate copyright. In the case of a dealer they know very well what the rules are. Mentioning a MM report being available ( like being FC) is a fact . Publishing the report is different and I cannot see why Bill had to do that . Bill please fix it!!
     
  20. gcalex

    gcalex Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 16, 2010
    547
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    And just to be clear, a copywrite is a copywrite, whether it is for a big stack of info, or just a single sheet of paper. And it should be respected.

    I only pointed out that the Massini Reports are often really robust, so that folks would appreciate just how much work is really backing-up the reports.
     
    96redLT4 and Lusso123 like this.
  21. BJK

    BJK F1 Rookie

    Jul 18, 2014
    4,781
    CT
    video by Bill Noon added on BaT


    .
     
  22. AtSomePoint

    AtSomePoint Karting

    Jun 20, 2009
    75
    Miami Beach
    Full Name:
    Bill
    I see OP's handle is 96redLT4 so I'm assuming he's a Corvette owner and perhaps knows other American makes as well.

    If so, it may be easiest to say that a Massini report is akin to a Marti report for Ford, Lincoln & Mercury.
     
    96redLT4 likes this.
  23. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    5,137
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Timo
    ... and that "etc." appears to include fairly extensive list of non-OEM modifications or omissions of OEM features, which could become difficult and/or costly to correct should any subsequent owner(s) desire to present the car for IAC/PFA-guideline judging and expect a score to reach a threshold for an "Award" of the lowest denomination.
     
    swift53 and 375+ like this.
  24. Ed Niles

    Ed Niles Formula 3
    Honorary

    Sep 7, 2004
    2,493
    West Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwin K. Niles
    Bira said it so well, I can only add, "I agree". Marcel has devoted his life to this endeavor, and his library is simply staggering.
     
    NGooding, mcimino, 456-boy and 4 others like this.
  25. TTR

    TTR F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    5,137
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Timo
    #25 TTR, Mar 14, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
    To best of my limited experience and understanding, regardless of their accuracy, completeness or not, any given certification, judging score or history report is just a snap shot at a given moment in a subject cars life.
    For example, judging score and/or any subsequent award based on it is just what the team of judges afforded to (or one could even argue, failed to find inaccuracies on) that car, at that event, on that day, nothing more, nothing less and does not guarantee the car is anywhere near "correct" or that the next team(s) of judges at some future event won't find countless things wrong with it, including some or all those the previous team missed.

    I do not wish take liberties to speak or interpret on behalf of Marcels reports, but I wouldn't be surprised if above applies to them also, to a some extent.
    Let's say an obtained one a year ago for a 50 year old example, but it may have shown no known "history" during first of its 30 years, but last week Marcel came across verifiable knowledge or into possession of documents proving various ownership changes and/or repair/service records, etc, during those 3 decades, therefor rendering the report he provided a year ago "incomplete".

    Call me cynic, but I, for one, could see above applying to Classiche certifications also.
    OTOH, that's probably why the Factory too now supposedly requires periodical re-inspections to maintain the certification status up to date.
     
    96redLT4 likes this.

Share This Page