Ahh good old A11, i heard of some lunatic doing 165 mph in a demo NSX in 1990 ..crazy i tell ya, crazy
The British Invasion is great - I've been several times w my Dad and my kids. Give a shout if you are able to make it this year - I'll take just about any excuse to do the drive through Pleasant Valley and then over Smuggler's Notch to Stowe!
Taz, I wouldn’t go that far. There are still fantastic driving roads in the UK, and wonderful country pubs. You have to try a bit harder to get to enjoy them/find them, but still plentiful. As well as driving my own cars, I have been reviewing ever-faster supercars here for 20 years. And while it’s true you can find better roads more easily on the whole on the less densely populated continental Europe, I rarely feel frustrated that I haven’t been able to drive a car properly here, albeit with provisos. And it’s hard with the fastest cars like some McLarens that don’t wake up til they are on the edge. And you can’t do sustained three figure speeds anywhere. Short bursts, yes. But a 308/328 would still be great fun here on the backroads. And the pub food is much better than 30 years ago. So don’t let it deter you from coming back!
i will . or hope to be , in Vt this summer, ao if they hold the event i should be there,, its a great day for me and my friends.. i also go to the Historic Weekend on the Labor Day weekend at Lime Rock,, thats even better
It's been a while since a 550 was on BaT. Anyone know if there are any coming up? I'm thinking the next one might set some records...
As a Brit looking across the pond, that has every chance of making daft money. It's what I'd consider a US spec. RC over beige, daytona seats, a nice bit of red piping, modular wheels, low miles and a 2004 build. Strap yourselves in for when that reaches a head scratching sum of money. Meanwhile in the UK the 575 F1 is the ugly sister to anything with a manual transmission. Very little new stock coming to market. Two recent additions at Bell Classics:- https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11342099?cId=11349256&cId=10646304&cId=11342099&cId=10417673&cId=8598120&cId=11074134&cId=9602725&cId=10694248&cId=10703787&cId=11060308&cId=10626126&cId=11288492&cId=7187138&cId=11268724&cId=10578519 https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11349256?cId=11349256&cId=10646304&cId=11342099&cId=10417673&cId=8598120&cId=11074134&cId=9602725&cId=10694248&cId=10703787&cId=11060308&cId=10626126&cId=11288492&cId=7187138&cId=11268724&cId=10578519 I think this will be the third time they've had that tdf car up for sale, each time the asking price drops by 10K. @jtremlett will no doubt have kept tabs on it in his records. Plus a recent drop in asking price on the Paul Bentley listed car which has a lovely colour scheme and stuck on shields. from 95k to 88k. https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10703787?cId=11349256&cId=10646304&cId=11342099&cId=10417673&cId=8598120&cId=11074134&cId=9602725&cId=10694248&cId=10703787&cId=11060308&cId=10626126&cId=11288492&cId=7187138&cId=11268724&cId=10578519 It is interesting how the addition of modular wheels on a 575 has little impact on asking price. Yet try and buy a set used for a sensible price. No doubt it makes the car more saleable, but it's not as though they are 5-10K more becasue the wheels are present. Finally a car with a price increase, this has been for sale for a while at 65k, then 70k and now 75k. Strange tactic, it didn't sell at 65 so lets put the price up. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010144996023?model=575M&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&postcode=tn86qj&radius=1501&sort=relevance&advertising-location=at_cars&include-delivery-option=on&make=FERRARI&page=1
I agree with @21ATS - this seems to be a sweet spot example. Low mileage, but not so low that it is a garage queen. Good options and a classic F-car color combo. I didn't review the service receipts, but seems like it was reasonably well maintained. Seller has done a good job presenting the car as well - no major questions leaped straight to mind - I'd be curious to see what others think.
So, we are six years, more or less, from Seth’s original post that started this epic thread. I am very fond of it, it has kept me company on evenings at home, evenings in bars on business trips around the world, and late nights on holidays, and lockdown, with the wisdom of so many. When it started I was just about to buy my first Maranello (550) in Italy, 3 months after that I bought my gated 575 in London. Six years on, prices (which are kind of the point of this thread) are almost exactly at the point they were during the OP. From the first post, they went up for a year or so, dropped back for a couple of years, then flattened out, maybe tipped up a bit in the last 12 months. and here’s the question, what will happen in the next couple of years? Downward drift, flatline, upward tick, or a separation (like we have seen with gated SAs vs F1 SAs)? Answers here please, and let’s all tune in in March 2027 (!) to see who’s right.
If you take the time to read from the start (epic journey) you will see peak Maranello may have been post 583 appropriately by Seth, August 2017: “Anyone interested in the fact that last evening at the Mecum's Pebble Beach auction a 3-pedal 575M rosso corsa/beige sold at hammer price of $385,000.? Assuming a normal buyer's commission of 10% buyer paid $423,500. Anyone care to guess what this will do to the Maranello market?”
I honestly have no idea. I would have bet that prices would have fallen with all that's been going on over the last year. I suppose I still think they will when the full economic impact hits. Regardless, the prices of gated 575s make absolutely no sense to me. You might reasonably argue that the 575 is a better car than the 550 (although I bought a 550 out of preference), so then a reasonable price for a gated 575 is 550 price plus a bit - 10% maybe. Anything more doesn't make any kind of sense at all. I don't know if anyone will really be stupid enough to pay $1 million (or whatever) for a gated SA but if they are I will happily sell them a bridge they can drive it over. But I suspect that there is no normality in the gated 575 equation because I think now it is basically investors buying them who don't drive them and ultimately hope to sell them for a profit to other investors who won't drive them either. If that's so, then at some point the music will stop and there will be a big crash (no pun intended!).
Guess what the Maranello market will do? Ha! Nobody knows what prices are going to do. Did anybody at this time last year think, at the dawn of the global pandemic, that we'd see a "hot" collector car market overall in 2020, and the pronounced rise in Maranello values in particular we've seen in the second half of last year? Nope. There are too many variables, too many "unknown unknowns" at play to be able to see very far into the future. Although it can be a fun exercise to speculate on the subject, in the end it's just that: speculation. People try to make sense of Ferrari values and such, but I think it's impossible. For one thing, a Ferrari is a purely aspirational, emotional purchase. You don't need a Ferrari, you want one. For most buyers it's not an impulse purchase, but more of a deliberate quest to find just the right car, or as close to it as possible. This can take months or even years, spanning maybe several value cycles. Also, Ferraris are relatively rare with low worldwide production numbers compared to "normal everyday" mass produced cars. You see a lot of semi-customization and model-by-model variation and uniqueness with Ferraris. You can option up a Ferrari such that it is literally "one of one." Furthermore, and as we all know, Ferraris typically don't get driven like regular cars do, so there is always a premium placed on "low" mileage cars. Which is to say, Ferraris are not normal, mass produced commodities like Toyotas or Fords, therefore Ferrari markets don't behave as such. They are an aspirational, emotional purchase for buyers...you don't need a Ferrari; you want one. As a result, Ferrari buyers tend to be quite fickle and I think Ferrari markets, and the waxing and waning price trends of different Ferrari models, reflect this fickleness over time.
@NE550 I'll be the first person to raise my hand.....I was "licking my chops" March of last year with hot money in my pocket waiting for the car market to tank (especially the pro-touring area) and it continued to shock me how strong and accelerating pockets of the car market have been. I follow the "old body style" (OBS) Ford truck market and the early Bronco market closely because I own both and it is SHOCKING what those trucks are going for now. Clean ones are hard to find and they were tools used and thrown away so clean solid trucks made from steel are only appreciating. We have seen a lot of things this last 12 months that don't make any sense. We have seen many many many guys that have lots of capital and are looking at the stock market shenanigans and feeling good about allocating capital to cars and boats and planes and motorcycles, etc. I did not expect the strength at all. With all that being said, I do realize the people under 40 years old and undeniably those under 30 are less and less interested in cars and I think those of us that are into cars in our 40's and 50's will be the last generation of the traditional enthusiasts. I'm okay with that. I buy to enjoy and have no intention of selling any of my toys....rarely does one go to make room for another and generally my collection is for "use/race" not "investment". It will be really interesting to watch the 360's and the 430's and to an extent the 458's since they produced so many (compared to Maranello's) so those markets I would think naturally would hit a bottom and then stay with a reasonable delta between models and theoretically shouldn't the V12's always command a premium given rarity in comparison? To me on the 550/575 market we definitely have room to see the market soften (maybe not a lot) but I would find it hard to understand if the market were to increase materially from here with the exception of the "specials" (barchettas SA's etc). I'm personally really excited to see more of the F1-6MT conversion effect and watch what that does to the market for the premium paid for 6MT 575's. What we have semi-recently seen with 550's trading at about a $30k premium to similar optioned/mileage 575's makes sense to me given the current cost for conversion......me personally, I cant imagine seeing well maintained moderate "driver mile" 575's trading below $70k (maybe ever).... @SteveVT I think will prove to have made one of the good COVID moves in the 575 arena.... so I'd think that would put "interestingly optioned, moderate mile, well maintained $550's at a theoretical floor of $100k with a potential premium on a converted 575 as it has the evolutionary upgrades. There were so few Maranello's that low mileage investment grade will always garner "interesting" premiums. @niftyfivefifty noted recently we haven't seen a 550 now for a few days (2/23/21 was the last hammer) on BaT after having a nice long run of them back to back.....we'll have to see what the next few trade for.....I'm always interested but as @root has noted you go to BaT to buy best of breed "right now" car so those are often going to trade above the private market. @NE550 Dave you mention correctly that so many variables can go into value with the possibility of "one of one's" in the Maranello market....that facet really fascinates me as a valuation guy. During my "unicorn hunting" it has seemed almost impossible to find "all of them" and if then do you get the desired color combo you want? For an analytics guy the hunt alone is fun and entertaining. I'm always learning and I have definitely been wrong the last 12 months. Always interested in hearing others thoughts.
Add watches to that list. Omega's 50th Snoopy Award Anniversary which is not limited lists for a little over $9k. They're selling for over $30k in the aftermarket. There's nothing in it that limits production in any way yet they're selling as if they're highly limited. COVID-19 limited production severely but once full production resumes the price will go back to equilibrium. I doubt this escapes those paying 4 times for it now, yet they're paying the premium. Go figure. COVID-19 has changed a lot of things and we'll have to wait until end of this year if things go as planned worldwide to see how things will shake out going forward. I don't think there are less twenty somethings interested and able to buy exotic cars than before. The interested percentage may have gone but the number of those interested and able has gone up as can be seen by the premiums paid for "interesting" cars. Tech continues creating new wealth for the masses so is the stock market, crypto currency, Gamestop, and speculation in general, etc. Some of it healthy some of it not. Take a look at what the 348s and 355s are doing. I think those are being bought by the younger sub 40 car enthusiasts not collectors. Problem with the Maranellos is they don't have pop up headlights. Otherwise they would be selling much higher. Clean low mileage Porsche 928s and 944s, NA Miatas, e31 MBWs all are trading near double what they traded for 2 years ago. So instead of doing F1 to manual swap on a 575, it may be cheaper and more financially rewarding to swap headlights to pop up headlights even though that doesn't really explain why the 456s have not doubled since 2 years ago. Still believe their time will come. Off the soap box and back to the drawing board...
@root @root just this week on the NFT (non fungible token) market those transactions to me are completely non-sensical but they must make a lot of sense to some, that’s for sure. Regarding your pop up comment...my car in 1990-2001 was an 89 dodge Daytona (black) with pop ups and my wife’s first car was a Fiero. Our family definitely is in that “pop up love” group. I have always loved the 308QV and while the experience and sound was what I wanted the power was lacking 8-( here’s my wonderful wife what feels like a lifetime ago....we in the Bay Area are spoiled with amazing drives! Image Unavailable, Please Login
@root I can’t tell if that other Bay Area shot with the curves worked I’m gonna try again. I think I took this one WAY north of the golden gate on Hwy 1 Image Unavailable, Please Login
Beautiful pictures. I have driven Hwy 1 from Bodega Bay to Malibu. Have you driven Skyline Blvd (Rte 35)? Hwy 1 has more scenic spots by Skyline is more fun drive and you don't need too much power to enjoy it. Love the 308s and 328s. Sat in a 328 GTS recently. I think they are susceptible to shrinkage as it felt a lot smaller, more cramped and harder to get in and out of than my recollection from 3 decades ago. Testarossa is another model that I find myself checking out from time to time.
My wife and I rode 2-up on my ‘86 Honda CB700SC from the golden gate to Pasadena to my brothers maybe 2004?....all the way on Hwy1. Corbin saddle but she said never that far again...wish I had a photo. love the 35/skyline — when I get the occasional day pass I get out to the Los Altos rod and Gun club. This is inside baseball for Bay Area guys but here is another favorite photo I took WAY north on the 1 when I did the drive thru redwood. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
308 GTS 25125 in front of my favorite pub, the Plough, in Rede near Bury St Edmunds. Flying F-111Fs at RAF Lakenheath in the early 80s when the photo was taken. No side mirrors, so photo probably taken in 1983. 285 hp hot rod with P6 cams, 4 outlet exhaust, no A/C, etc. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Attended school in Glasgow late 70s to early 80s. I could count only 1 308 during all that time. Belonged to a restaurant owner. Nothing looked like it at the time. That clean mirrorless side looks sweet.
Though I agree no one can predict the future value of anything, I firmly believe the sky is the limit for these cars. Here are my reasons: These three points led to very low production numbers for what the car is: 1. The 550 was not super popular when it was released. Many buyers were holding out for a mid engine TR successor, and the 80s wiped all memory of front engine gated V12 Fcars. 2. Additionally, the cars were expensive at the equivalent of ~$400k+ today with inflation. Similar to 812S pricing, but not as justifiable when people were expecting a mid-engine car. 3. At the time Ferrari's credibility with reliability was at an all-time low, so even though the 550 was a turning point for the brand, it would not show signs of recovery until the 360. Though the ~2000 550s produced for the USA market may seem like a lot compared to a 993 Turbo S or Diablo 6.0 GT, this is still only 40 cars per state. At any given time there are less ~10 or less 550s for sale, and most of the sitters aren't moving for a reason. These are clear indicators of upward momentum. Now that it has been a while, the 550/575 makes perfect sense, especially because: 4. It is reliable (for a Ferrari). 5. Reasonably priced service costs. 6. Every day useable. I still can't believe how much stuff I can fit in this car. It is just understated enough to be driven every day, but wild enough to make every drive feel like an occasion. I believe it to be the most accessible supercar of its time, and then some. 7. V12, and readily available equal length headers make the sound of these cars intoxicating. The OEM sound was my least favorite thing about the car, and now it is one of my favorites. This will only become more important as V12s stop production over the next few years. 8. It is gorgeous and IMHO only rivaled by the limited models from Lamborghini (Diablo GT, Countach 5000S, etc.). And maybe the 512TR, but that is my own personal bias. Maybe the 993 Turbo as well, and we know where those values have been heading for quite some time. It actually amazes me how much the 550 has trailed the appreciation of Diablos and premium 993 cars, and I think those provide us with a glimpse of what the 550/575 will do in the long run. 9. Gated shifter. There really isn't anything else like it. 10. It is a blast to drive. There aren't really any "quirks" to its driving mannerisms. It is the most collected car I have ever driven sideways, and I can control it with my pinky in a WOT powerslide. It will still outrun most modern cars from 100-180+. And then I can take my wife to dinner in comfort and style, and even at a valet thick with new McLarens and V10 Lambos, they will park the 550 up in front. 11. It is easy to drive for hours and hours at a time. I do feel exhausted after a long drive just because any gated performance car demands more attention and physical interaction than a modern car, but I never feel fatigued while driving it. This makes it an ideal grand tourer. Involving, but enduring. It energizes the driver instead of taking away. 12. It is almost always the only 550 at any gathering or show. It is usually a crowd favorite and sparks so many interesting conversations. It seems like one of the most universally loved Ferraris by non-Ferrari car enthusiasts. The muscle car people love it because it is the embodiment of their genre in Italian form; big motor up front, RWD, long hood, great style. The German car people love it because it is classy without sacrificing performance. The Japanese enthusiasts love it because it is known for being such a great driver's car, and it is like an exotic Supra. The Brits love it because of its maturity and elegance. The only time I hear complaints is in YouTube comments from younger people who are not part of the car's target market. What also surprised me is the vast diversity of people who love it. Men, women, young, old, people from all around the world. Positive vibes all around. 13. Recognition. Bad Boys II, The Family Man, Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit, etc. 14. Triple World Speed Record holder until the Murcielago was released. Not a single Diablo held any contention, not even the 6.0 GT. 15. Spiritual successor to the 275GTB and Daytona, two cars that are already stratospheric in values. 16. The generation that loves these cars, myself included, is starting to have the means to purchase. The market is steadily growing, and with new breakout investments like crypto and WSB trends, the market for these cars will only continue to grow. I would be curious to hear other's thoughts. I am a bit biased because the 550 is a top 3 car for me, but I still can't believe how much it lived up to and far exceeded my childhood dreams. It continues to impress me every day.
@niftyfivefifty #1) I love your post #2) I love your Instagram feed #3) I appreciate hugely your contributions and if you continue piling on miles you will be a current generation wealth of info and strategies for repair. We really don’t have many publicly discussed cars over 50k miles so I’m excited to watch yours climb and climb. #4) the 550 has always been my #1 want. If values do continue to climb it most definitely will help “the herd” as high prices at least for me helps justify the maintenance investment. if you haven’t called out your total miles lately are you approaching 40k total now?
Thank you Eric, and thanks for your contributions and persevering fandom of these cars. Same for me, the 550 is my number one. I don't know what I'll do next because it's really Countach, Zonda, F40, Isdera, Pantera GT5, McLaren F1, and I am nowhere near successful enough to consider any of those in the near future. I love muscle cars too and that may be my next purchase, but for now I need more garage storage space. And I would love a long travel 1996 Bronco in Eddie Bauer Blue and Tan. But like you said earlier, those are currently mooning, and I may need to find one in the sticks before everyone discovers they are turning into one of the next 90s delicacies of the road. Yes, I'm currently on my way to 40k at 39,3XX. ~18k since June 2019, and that is on top of me driving my work truck approximately 2k/month. I love to drive more than just about anything else. I think it's where I do my best thinking, it gets me in my flow state, and the thoughts the 550 helps me come up with are always the best. I love this place because we get to share our lessons learned on these cars, and the wealth of knowledge here will lend itself to even higher values. The discussions here help bring the car down from the atmosphere for anyone to digest, and this helps make ownership an easier reality. Not that my car will appreciate, I hope to be over 100k miles within 5 years and I kind of want to see the car's condition become "normalized" with patina from all of the driving. Not neglected, but well loved. And hopefully many more "Aha" moments to share because I'm sure there will be a few.
