Another 777 emergency landing for engine failure | FerrariChat

Another 777 emergency landing for engine failure

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by nerofer, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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  2. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    No "engine failure", but only a sensor, apparently. And these are GE engines, not P&W.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/world/europe/boeing-777-engine-emergency-landing.html

    Rgds
     
  3. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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  4. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Today a member of the "Aeroflot" group; the company can trace its lineage back to the thirties, through a process of mergers, etc...
    For those who traveled to, or from, St Petersburg in the nineties, Rossiya absorbed the well-known "Pulkovo Airlines" in 2004.
    Unfortunately, it doesn't have Il-86 or 96 anymore...I do like the "Triple 7" a lot, but those big Illyushins were "interesting"; that was something "different"...

    Rgds
     
  5. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
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    They always reminded me of the A340 only more aerodynamic looking. Cool looking aircraft that I saw at ORD a few times. Cowboy Russian crew did not need deice in the middle of a snow storm :) And no I am not kidding.
     
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  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Having flown a few times on Russia inland lines, I believe you without a doubt. I have fond memories of a flight 20 years ago on a TU-124 from Moscow to Astrakhan, with a group of russian fishermen at the back of the airplane, that had drunk "something else than water" and were trying to catch the flight attendants with small fishing rod and lines...
    Illyushins and Tupolevs started to disappear real fast from their regular lines during the 2000's, mainly for poor fuel economy. It's a bit sad, I loved to fly "different"...when I returned from Vladivostok to Moscow after having gone there by the Transsiberian in 2001, we flew already on an Airbus, if my memory, etc...

    Rgds
     
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  7. Kuba

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    Special "Tiger" livery on one of their jumbos.
     
  8. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The P&W R2800 was great, not so sure after that. Should not complain too much, I guess, over 2000 hours with P&W TF-30s and only had to shut down a couple of them and they always got me home.
     
  10. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I once watched an Aeroflot Il-86 take off at JFK from the roof parking deck of the old Pan Am Worldport. That airplane would have to make two refueling stops enroute to Moscow; the Pan Am 747s that also did the route could do it nonstop!
     
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  11. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    They weren't fuel efficient at all (like many soviet airplanes); you could barely call them "medium range airliners"; if my memory serves me well, the Il-86 couldn't fly the Moscow-Vladivostok route direct, it had to stop at midway (usually Irkoutsk) to refuel.

    Rgds
     
  12. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    P&W had a strong reputation for decades in France after World War Two. Some say that it dates back to the Curtiss P-36 order just before WWII. These P-36s (called H-75 here) were fitted with the P&W "Twin Wasp" engine.
    During the "phoney war" (September 1939 to May 1940), the "H-75" squadrons were sent to the North-East of France, facing the german border. In winter, North-East is usually the coldest part of the country, and it so happened that the winter of 1939-40 was the coldest of the century. The P&W engines started-up without any trouble whatsoever every morning , they didn't threw oil, etc: these engines were the most reliable and best performing engines of the whole range in the "Armée de l'Air" (admittedly, the french engines were bad at that time). It impressed every mechanic that came close to them.
    Later, during the "Battle of France", the "H-75" were the most efficent fighters of the "Armée de l'Air" and the Pratt & Whitney engines' reputation in this country started there: every mechanic that had worked on these engines during these difficult times, would after the war work in the maintenance services for Air France, etc...and for them, a P&W engine was THE standard for aeroengines.

    Rgds
     
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  13. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Yup, Great recips from P&W. I have a couple hundred hours on R2800s. Leaked oil, but always started and got you where you wanted to go. Dad flew P-47Ds in WW-II with the same engine and they brought him home every time. Could have used them in Korea for ground attack since they were much tougher than the V12s in the P-51Ds. Two more guns, too.
     
  14. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    So good that the Germans copied it for their BMW radial. I still have confidence in P&W and this problem will be solved. Stretching the technology always has dangers. I remember the JT-3, 4, 7,8, and 9 as darn good engines some that some of which had overcome early problems. Let's give it a chance, here.
     
  15. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Hi Bob,

    I may be wrong on that, and will have a look at my archives, books, etc...but I think that there was actually a kind of "gentleman's agreement" between Wright and P&W about engine technology licensing during the thirties, and that after that agreement Wright licencesed their technology to the USSR, and P&W to Germany. And that explains that the whole range of Shvetsov radials is strongly inspired by Wright technology, and that the BMW radials are P&W inspired.

    Rgds
     
  16. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    There is an anecdote that I have to quote by memory, as I can't find the time, place and author right now, which goes that when the german technicians inspected the first P-47 to have crashed on their soil during WWII, their engine experts had a long look at the R-2800, and were so impressed by the engine assembly that one said: "Gentlemen, we have lost the war".
    Will try to find the source...

    Rgds
     
  17. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    #17 Bob Parks, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
    Thank you for the details. I think that you are more informed than I am and I respect your input. When I was stationed at Langley Field we had a mix of B-17's and B-24's. The former with Wright R1820's and the latter with P&W R1830's. Both were very good engines and ran and ran with few problems. This reliability had to have had a huge effect on our strategic plan of attack on the Axis. Also when I was at Hondo, the airplanes AT-7's there were powered by the P&W R985 and the C-60's were powered by W R1820's. Never a problem .
     
  18. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Well, for what this is Worth:

    About the P&W engines reputation in France :
    Source: « The Curtiss H-75 » (Jean Cuny & Gérard Beauchamp, « Docavia #4 » - in French – April 1985) page 292

    « The P&W R-1830 engine of the H-75 made a lot for Pratt & Whitney reputation in France, there even was an extraordinary enthusiasm for it. Here was a high performance engine that was always running like a clock, always started first time even in the most difficult conditions, and was easy to overhaul : in short, exactly what you could expect from of a modern engine, which was much more than what the national production was able to acheive at the time. Such was the impression it made that a licence for local assembly was bought and paid for, but this came to nought with the June 1940 defeat »


    About the filiation from American radials in the Soviet Union and Germany :

    In the USSR : source is Vladimir Kotelnikov, « Russian Piston Aero Engines » (2005):
    As for the big radials, a delegation of the Soviet Union visited the United States’ major engine manufacturers at the end of 1931, and eventually chose the Wright « Cyclone », in its R-1830-F3 variant, for licence production in the USSR.
    Wright agreed to provide all drawings and specifications converted to metrics. The licence was officially signed on April 22, 1932, and was ratified by a special decree from the Soviet Government in May ; local production of the engine in USSR started in 1934.
    (Hershell Smith in his book « Piston Aero engines » tells us that the licence fees were meticulously paid until well into the Second World War).
    Every engine of the family of Shvetsov radials owed something to the « Cyclone »’s technology, even if, model after model, they diverged further and further from the original.
    (Later negociations, at the end of the thirties, agin with Curtiss-Wright, notably for buying a production license for Curtiss-Wright propellers, foundered due to the Soviet Union attack on Finland)

    In Germany :
    BMW bought a licence from Pratt & Whitney on January 3rd, 1928 for the Pratt & Whitney « Hornet » R-1690 engine. It was license-produced in Germany under the name « BMW Hornet ».

    By the mid-1930, BMW had developped an improved version from the « Hornet », called the BMW 132, which powered notably the Junkers 52.
    In 1935, the German Air Ministry, the RLM, funded prototypes of two larger radials, the Bramo 329, and the BMW 139. The BMW design used many components from the 132 to create a two-row engine with 14 cylinders ; BMW bought Bramo in 1939 and then merged its 139 design with Bramo’s, to create the BMW 801, which would power such aeroplanes as the Focke-Wulf 190 and the Junkers 88 (Wikipedia).

    As for the division between the two manufacturers: Wright licensing to the USSR, Pratt and Whitney to Germany, there does not seem to have been any discussion or formal agreement between the two firms: it seems to have been only driven by the choice of the countries who bought the licences.
    But Pratt & Whithey technology did indeed go the the future axis powers (Germany, Italy and Japan) as FIAT in Italy also bought a licence for the R-1690, built under the name FIAT A.59R; and the Mitsubishi « Kinsei » was also based on the P&W R-1690, but not a development of it (twin-row 14 cylinders instead of single row 9 cylinders).

    You never know what perfectly acceptable customers at one time might develop into later...
    Hope I'm not dwelving into P & R here, but I have been harbouring the same thoughts for quite sometime about Russia licensing much of its aeronautical technology and knowledge to China...

    Rgds
     
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  19. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    The Shvetsov ASh-73 which powered the Tupolev Tu-4 (their B-29 copy) was not a copy of the R-3350 but was developed independently, though it undoubtedly also had some Wright DNA in it as well. I wonder if the Soviets had as many problems with it as we had with the early R-3350s.
     
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  20. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Indeed, contrary to what has been written in many publications, the Ash-73 was not a copy of the R-3350, but they shared a "common ancestor", shall we say. So they were similarities in lay-out, dimensions, etc...in particular in the cylinders. Soviet metallurgy was not as advanced as the american's, so the dry weight of the Ash-73 was heavier, but although it did suffer some reliability problem during its introduction, it did not have the magnesium fires that were to plague the early R-3350s.

    The soviets started to develop what you could call "a double row variant" of the M-25 (= their R-1830) in 1938, which was the M70; it was not succesful, nor was the following M-71; the developpment of the Ash-73 was already started when they captured the B-29s and decided to "reverse engineer" these. As said a soviet engineer: "there was no need to copy the Wright R-3350, because when we decided to build the Ty-4, a copy of the B-29, we already had a comparable engine on test".

    You have to keep in mind that their M-25 (= licensed R-1830) was in metrics, so the Ash-73 bore and stroke make more sense in metrics; furthermore, you will notice that its stroke was slightly longer.
    R-3350: bore = 155,6 mm (6 1/8) x stroke = 160,2 (6 5/16) capacity = 54.862 litre (3.347,9) dry weight = 1.210 kgs (2.670 lbs)
    Ash-73: bore = 155,5 mm (6.12) x stroke = 170 (6.7) capacity = 58.122 litre (3.546,8) dry weight = 1.340 kgs (2.958 lbs)

    However, it should be noted that on the Ash-73 variant used to power the Ty-4 (russian spelling is "Ty", not "Tu"), which was the Ash-73 TK (TK for "Turbocharged"), the turbochargers and intercoolers WERE indeed reverse-engineered from the american parts of the 3350.

    Rgds
     
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  21. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Of course, you meant R-1820. Their developed M-25 was called the M-62, later the ASh-62, when they changed the designation to reflect the design bureau. They also developed a 14-cylinder engine, the ASh-82, that was similar to the Wright R-2600.
     
  22. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    Yes, you're right: R-1820, my bad.

    As for the designation, well…if we want to be rather pedantic, it could be argued that it did not reflect the « design bureau », which always was officially only « Number 19, or OKB 19 » (based in Perm) but did reflect the designer himself. At least that’s what the soviet union authorities sanctionned officially.

    An « experimental design bureau » (there were other types of bureau…) or OKB (“Опытное конструкторское бюро" – Opytnoye Konstruktorskoye Buro, Experimental Design Bureau) was officially identified by a number (in the case of the one led by Shvetsov: OKB 19) but also non-officially by the name of the lead designer, Arkady Dmitrievich Shvetsov (Аркадий Дмитриевич Швецов). Late in the war, the designation of engines was adapted to reflect the name of the bureau's designer.

    Some sources say that the system of designation for engines started to change in 1941 (eg: M-62 to Ash-62) but as for Shvetsov at least, that is not confirmed by official soviet sources, which say April 1944 only: on March 6th, 1944, the State Committee of Defense, by a decision named “On the introduction of new names for aircraft engines” stated that engines designed by, or under the supervision of, Arkady Shvetsov will be given a reference “ASh” (abbreviation from the first letter of his given name and family name).
    Officially, the engines themselves started to be designated “Ash” instead of “M” on April 1st, 1944.

    Note that an OKB, as its name says, was not in charge of engine production, but only of design, conception and experimentation of the prototypes ; once agreed upon, production was entrusted to a state factory.

    Shvetsov died at a relatively early age (barely 60) and the “bureau 19” (OKB 19) was taken over by Pavel Soloviev; today it still exists, still in Perm, designing and producing turbines under the name Aviadvigatel (Авиадвигатель).

    Of course Shvetsov developped the M-82, later ASh-82, this through the unsuccessful M-80, then unsuccessful M-81, which were twin-row 14 cylinders radials, cylinders being directly from the M-62.
    The M-82, in many different variants, was a great engine that powered, among others, the Lavochkin La-5 and 7 ; notably, the exhaust disposition on the La fighters made use of the propulsive energy of the exhaust gases in what was a very efficient system.

    The Ash-82 can indeed be compared to the R-2600, but also to its other 14 cylinder sibling, the BMW 801D : most of the Focke-Wulf 190s flying today have Ash-82 engines in place of their original BMW 801D.


    Ash-82 (57.898 built in Soviet Union during the war, further production after.)
    Bore = 155,5 mm (6.122 in) ; Stroke = 155 mm (6.102 in) ; displacement = 41,2107 litre (2,514.83 cu in) ; dry weight = 1.020 kg (2,250 lb)

    Wright R-2600
    Bore = 155,6 mm (6 1⁄8 in) ; Stroke = 160,3 mm (6 5⁄16 in) ; displacement = 42.7 litre (2,604 cu in) ; dry weight = 930 kg (2,045 lbs)

    Rgds
     
  23. Bob Parks

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    I have to thank you guys for the vast amount of data and history about all these engines. Impressive and very educational. This forum is a never ending source of interesting material.
     
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  24. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    You too kind, Bob. Nothing more than a good memory and the right books on the bookshelves, to cross-check, and verify if the memory is still accurate.

    One of the consequences of the Coronavirus and being in either lockdown, partial lockdown, or "under curfew" is that it leaves you more time to browse through the books...
    For the time being at least, it is now curfew from 6 pm to 6 am, but the circulation of the new virus variants (british variant, brasilian variant and especially the south-african variant in my neck of woods) is exploding, so a new full lock-down is not to be excluded in the days to come.
    So I have decided to "lockdown" myself again (anniversary of the first "full lockdown" in two weeks from now, on March 16th...) and stay "inside" as much as I can.

    Rgds
     
  25. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Of course, the Soviets also rationalized aircraft designations at about the same time as they did with engine designations, which is why fighter designations beginning with "I" or bomber designations beginning with "TB" or "SB" similarly disappeared, replaced with the letters of the designer's name.
     

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