The GPF-degraded sound GPF on the new GT3 is very noticeable, imho. It may be a legit issue, regardless of the make.
It's extremely hard to fault the 812 GTS. I tend to love the more track focused versions of Ferrari's (well, any brand) more, but I'm genuinely struggling to comprehend if the 812 GTS SA would be any better (apart from more exclusive) over an 812 GTS. I find the 812 GTS to look better than the Coupe as well, and I tend to prefer coupe's. Stunning car.
I think you can remove the word ‘may.’ It’s legit an issue. Hats off to Porsche for making the GT3 naturally aspirated and still sounding pretty damn good even though muffled with GPF. Interesting how Porsche made an entire lengthy car commercial highlighting the exhaust note of the engine. Thanks for posting that vid it was pretty cool. High five to Ferrari as well for making the GTS perhaps the best sounding GPF equipped car in history. These cars sound great but let’s be honest ... still not quite as sharp as their non-GPF predecessors. Still great but somehow ‘less than.’ Call me a besotted romantic but I’m pouring one out for the ... yes ... purity ... of the 812 Superfast engine and drivetrain. Little did we know it was THAT car which was the end of an era. We all thought the 812 VS cars would at least have unassisted naturally aspirated V12s. But it seems The Age of the Pure Unassisted V12 Ferrari has already entered the dark twilight even before the 812 VS gets here. Some will fawn over their turbos and Teslas and to those people I say ‘Please enjoy.’ But a very important light in the world has gone out. Ferrari isn’t making pure or even unassisted V12s any more.
They are special series with completely different market . We should consider standard production series and there there is a possibility 812SF and 812GTS will be last normal series with a N/A 12V .
I own a brand new 2020 812 SF and I’m very happy with it . Since when my 812 SF was on order I discussed with the dealear to order also a GTS because I’m in love with sport convertible car and trade in the SF once GTS should be ready . But at a certain point I realized I like the SF much more , more sporty more aggressive . Taking a look from behind GTS reminds me 308 GTS with some steroid . No it is not my car . I decided to keep my SF . Very very fast car. I would say mine has also GPF but I’m not against it as many here , noise is different , but after 1000 miles is getting better . It doesn’t disturb me the little difference in pitch . In case I will take it away installing a 200 cell inconel exhaust but not for noise just to let the engine non finding that “obstruction “ in the exhaust system and consequently leaning for burning particles . That I don’t like even more than sound changing . My 2 cents
There is only one last and the fact is the SF was far from it. Folks like to do this all the time - adding so many conditionals that it becomes meaningless. What was the last NA V8 Ferrari model? Hint - it was not the 458 Italia.
Missed the cut. Dealer said 5 cars and a special (he noted an Enzo), though he did submit the name to Ferrari. Oh well, guess I’ll stick to plan B and look at a LaF or something. Then next time...
I disagree 100% sorry . You can’t compare a market of special series where Ferrari is choosing VVIP to sell them with a market of normal production series . The first doesn’t exist , very exclusive , private with their rules and value gaining , the other is made by normal people in love with Ferrari cars like me . I don’t think it is so difficult to understand . Like one off car like P38 what it has to do with special series or production . . Anyway This is my humble opinion . And I can say if my SF will be the last coupe’from Ferrari standard production with N/A 12V I will be more than happy and I will keep it forever
I love the fact how everyone who did not get an allocation for the 812VS is now saying that the 812SF will be the last N/A V12 only because Galliera said “breakthrough”... Dealer confirmed it will be naturally aspirated - no turbos and no hybrid. Will be the real last! So yes, 812SF will be last production N/A V12 and 812VS will be last limited edition N/A V12 (besides maybe future Iconas).
Owning a V12 Ferrari is a very special experience and the car should be enjoyed for what it is versus for what it is not. But you've worn me down. The 812SF is the last 'coup', 'standard production', 'GT', 'mid-front', 'flagship', 'non-private commissioned', 'four-wheel steer', 'pure', 'NA', 'V12, 'non-competition', 'non-special series' Ferrari that was named '812SF'. I give my congratulations to those about to go on the journey of owning a new VS!
I find this argument rather facile. You are simply stating a valid opinion as though it were a fact. If you find the Superfast (and I have one) the last ‘pure’ Ferrari, that’s fine. But somehow you seem to say it as though everyone else is incorrect for feeling differently. You simply cannot say GTS is not pure because it has a filter on the exhaust. Do you simply not know the Superfast has exactly the same? A catalyst does exactly the same thing - it restricts flow. And the Superfast has some very big ones! If your definition of pure is non flow-restricted, you have to go back a long way to find the last ‘pure’ V12. Probably an early Testarossa or late BB512. Your argument seems to be ‘some flow restriction ‘ pure, but a bit more flow restriction - not pure’. The concept of pure means that if flow restriction removes purity, then any flow restriction must remove purity. It’s nonsensical. I have a GTS too. I prefer its sound to the SF. The difference in volume is immaterial but the sound quality of the GTS is nicer, really old-school V12. It reminds you of when V12s really were pure. It is a normally aspirated V12 from the old school and the world’s best maker of such machines. When you drive it, the link between throttle and engine is oh-so-direct, the progression up the rev range is linear. Just like the Superfast but a bit different. The Superfast has less of that old-school sound. You also prejudge the VS before you even know what it is. Don’t you think that’s the sort of thing you might criticise someone else for? Your argument is that it has ‘assistance’. Why is the F12 not the last pure V12 then? The 812 has lower gearing to assist the engine. That means that they have selected gear ratios that are not ideal to try and assist the engine with low down torque. That has never been necessary before but in this age of turbo performance, to allow the V12 to progress in terms of performance they had to give it some ‘assistance’. Now you might say ‘that doesn’t count, it’s ‘proper’ engineering’ but will we now embark on a debate about what constitutes proper engineering? That is a debate without end excepting the most likely conclusion, which is that all engineering is proper engineering. Which means that turbo, GPF, camshafts, bearings, pistons, gear ratios, KERS, it’s all just engineering. Trying to argue what pure is among that lot is not anything we can decide, it’s simply a matter of opinion. The cleanest conclusion is that a V12 without exhaust-driven turbos could be considered to be less ‘pure’, but only because that is what most people mean when they say it. Doesn’t make you wrong if you hold a different opinion but does make your opinion an outlier. And why is this the common opinion? Because an exhaust turbo interferes with the connection between throttle and power delivery. That is the most commonly accepted definition of what people mean by ‘pure’ in this context. The GTS is a pure V12. You just cannot get around it. If the VS has exhaust turbos, not pure (in my opinion), if it has some electrical assistance, could still be pure, so long as the connection between throttle and power delivery is instantaneous and linear, again, my opinion. If the electrical assistance interferes with that relationship for the sake of extra power, fun but not pure, according to my view. Even my view is questionable though. By my definition the F40 is the least pure Ferrari ever made. Yet I would absolutely love one, like many people. It’s just....well, pure.
We are talking about nothing due to nobody knows VS Specs and even what will be the future . We just suppose . What I would like once more to say you can’t mix special series with normal production in all considerations you can do . They are two different things , different markets and customers . We don’t know sic stantibus rebus if VS wil be Hybrid , Turbo or N/A but in anyway it wil be and remain a special series that stays by its own . On the other hand there is normal production coupe’ and roadster (SF & GTS) with a N/A V12 . Nobody knows what next model will have , may be still N/A V12 even if I doubt it due to homologation problems . May be the new solution on VS it will be the new solution for next model like it has been with F12 TDF and 812 SF and we will clarify our ideas . If SF and GTS will be last coupe’ and Roadster N/A V12 standard production I will be more than happy , and people with their VS allocation will enjoy anyway having everybody happy . Still two different worlds
I’m trying to figure out when and why The GPF Fan Club was formed seemingly out of nowhere. What is an incredibly facile argument is to liken exhaust cats to a GPF. A GPF is a giant metal canister the size of a gallon jug of milk and stuffed full of filter elements. And it bolts right to the engine. And there are two of them. And they are IN ADDITION TO the exhaust cats. It is unequivocal that they have a muffling effect on the sound. This is tautological. I don’t knock anyone for preferring the more mellow bassy sound of the GTS but the Superfast just rips silk like an F1 car because it’s unfettered and free. You’re hearing the best engine on planet earth in all its glory. The boffins at Maranello came outside of their bodies and performed a miracle with the sound of the GPF ... excuse me ... the GTS ... it’s better than it has any right to be. It’s just lacking that last detent on the visceral dial compared to the Superfast. It’s not it’s fault. It’s physics. If a GPF is so great ... tell me one person who is knocking on Novitec’s door ... asking them if they have a way of putting GPF ... ON ... to a car that doesn’t have it. Oh that’s right. It’s the other way around. Times 1,000. Also ... listen to a Pista and then listen to the F8 Dyson and tell me a GPF is the same as the cats.
I have seen the client video all over Instagram now from Ferrari, on @812_gto and @rosso812 it is surprising, I have strong belief that the engine will rev to 10K and be louder. Larger exhaust pipes too! Someone who has seen the photos has told me more info will come out on monday. New F1 rear diff and steering system to be featured. Many aero vents on the hood and side vents too. Overall a very aggressive car carrying over some features from the Pista and LaF. I can't wait to see the video on Monday
You are clearly not willing or able to understand what we are saying. Nobody has claimed to be fans of the GPF, we are talking about what it does to the actual driving experience APART from muting the sound a bit. And to say it does not compare to cats? Good grief. Take off the cats and listen to how much that changes the sound. It is clear that you lack the experience to understand this. Tou have an idea about something you have not done, and yet you are totally oblivious and deaf to anything those,with experience tell you. Just about every car on the planet has a character and some flaws. That means the definition of pure pertains to a sum of things. You are too hung up on the GPF and you don't know how much it affects the car overall. Would a lot of us prefer it without GPF? Yes. But that is not the same as us experiencing the car as less pure. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Still missing the point, there is no GPF fan club, as you well know. The GPF, a device to further a long line of devices designed to achieve the same thing - lower emissions. It’s not the first so where your idea of purity falls along that line is simply a matter of opinion. Yours clearly leads you to say that GPF is a step too far and now the car is not pure. Others will think differently because all these devices disturb the fun to some degree, in the same way as DCT does to some people, or traction control, or torque vectoring etc. No true enthusiast loves GPF, or catalysts, or throttle mapping and retardation (designed in all cars) to meet the emissions tests. Yet we have them. Whether you think a car is still ‘pure’ with some or all of these, is simply a matter of opinion. I have had a number of GT3 RS’s, nobody gets into a 991.2 GT3 RS Weissach Pack and says, “oh my, this car is so impure”. I think you’re just jumping on a bandwagon and saying a car is not pure, automatically because it has a GPF, without considering what you or anyone thinks ‘pure’ to mean. It wouldn’t be an issue worth discussing except you seem to state your opinions as facts. So what else is a forum for but to discuss and disagree? We disagree.
I’ll bet the folks at the Ferrari factory to unwind at the end of a tense week grab some wine and sit around together reading FChat and laugh their butts off.
In this coming week we should all have more information and some specifics for the new VS. This may be some fleeting image, some video snippet or hopefully in addition some information regarding the specialness of the car . I’m impatient to learn about the additional features ,mechanical and artistic , rather than performance figures or build numbers tbh. However. I think there may be a drip drip feed of this information in the next month or so. I love the sound of my 812 SF and also love the sound of my TDF - both without GPF...I’m actually not concerned about whether the VS has GPF or not- I really don’t . All I care about is the driving emotion and the feeling it gives me and if the VS sounds good , feels great and makes me feel alive when I drive it then I’m happy . Getting back to the VS yes it would be wonderful to have a 10,000 RPM limit .Yes It’l be wonderful to have incredible new technology and aero features that’s not been seen before and that will be available in the 812 replacement etc. etc. Before long we will have some definitive information coming through and then the fun and games really begin and hopefully we can leave this GPS/non-GPF discussion as a subjective retrospective naval gazing exercise that is best left out of the VS discussions - imho. I don’t understand why so much discussion about a subjective sensation ( how ‘an individual ‘ interprets the sound ) is relevant to the VS. It will have GPF.. so what .. I’m hoping Monday will provide some tease of a rear , a hint of a glint , a smidgen of a smirk of the VS body.... auto voyerism has a great appeal ... Possibly 880 bhp, possibly 10,000 rpm , certainly aggressive stance ( more so than even the TDF?!) but definitely bound to be a triumph of combining new Tech , with artisan flare , and engineering aero....Last V12 of this guise whether assisted /Non assisted /hybrid / or whatever
Man don't worry, you are not alone thinking like this, I think the same. The GPF change the sound and not just a bit. The sound is less raw than it used to be and this is a shame. Don't get me wrong, it is still a Ferrari and bring me smile every time I drive them but the GPF thing is sad to me because it remove excitement from the driving experience, thus, I agree that having a GPF can be considered less "pure".Don t tell me if you had a 812 with he sound of a rolls, it would excite you much.. This is subjective I know but to me, sound is equally as important as the chassi for driving enjoyment, and regulation is taking it from us. Coming from a modest Ferrari collector.
I think nobody is a fan of GPF . Absolutely not , but when I got my 812 SF last May and I realized it had GPF I’ve been a little disappointed. What I can say is Ferrari made a great work on it and after some miles , sounds is getting better and better . I had a F12 before and really I don’t feel any differences in sound tone . All that said I’m not in love with super screaming exhaust like Novitec or else . I’m not a track man with normal sport cars . I go on track with proper track cars and safety . I use sport cars on normal road as they are allowed to do it and I would like to enjoy driving 200-300 km . I like the sound very much like it is , with GPF , having this use . On the other side I’m a mechanical engineer and what I don’t really like of GPF is the obstruction and back pressure it is making to the exhaust flow . This is not good for engine health . Furthermore the CPU is changing , according to the sensor ,the rate between fuel and air leaning it in order to burn particles inside GPF and as far as I know even this means engine health problem . For those reasons I’m considering to change exhaust system , taking away GPF and go with 200 cell cat . Not decided yet because there will be warranty issues
No I can't but I remember someone in this conversation have already given a clue ... few weeks ago. ;-) Ciao Luque
