The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397) | Page 12 | FerrariChat

The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397)

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Aircon, Jan 29, 2021.

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  1. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    A perfect finish? Something an f40 never had.

    Are you new to this? That was quite an essay.
     
  2. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    Guess I must be with experts like you around to help guide us along.

    So many original owners of F40's complained to the factory about the original finish of the the paint, they didn't like the weave showing! This is why later in the production run of F40's, the factory applied multiple coats of undercoat, paint and gelcoat to get a much smoother finish. You can hardly see any weave in many of the later cars.

    Its almost as if you are disappointed they have found the body number.
     
  3. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter
    Yeah....how would I know anything about F40s

    Lol
     
  4. F40-R

    F40-R Formula 3

    Jun 22, 2014
    1,218
    megamarco9, ferry430, JOEV and 2 others like this.
  5. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    You needed to do it I think.

    The blue car would have caused you ongoing pain otherwise
     
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,746
    It does. Thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
  7. 365GTC/4

    365GTC/4 Formula 3

    Apr 7, 2005
    2,287
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    John
    Do you know that a 308 has the same windscreen as an F40?

    Sorry I couldn't resist. Do you know anything about Ferrari oil leaks then?
     
  8. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Peter
    Lol....stop that!
     
  9. Garretto

    Garretto F1 Rookie

    Sep 3, 2003
    4,922
    Bilbao, Spain
    Full Name:
    Rodolfo Di Pietro
    Well he makes excellent videos, he could provide us with one more video showing all the bits together, not for credibility (which is sufficiently proved), but just for the sake of seeing the true F40 90969 in all its glory.
     
  10. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    I do not think anyone has claimed that the red car could be the cannonball car? the thought could be that the blue car may well have been built up from the cannonball remains, but for reasons still not known it took the red cars VIN instead. The concern was that they could have been a mix and match of components that's all.

    Good to see everything is in order with the red car, the emergence of the blue example must have caused some sleepless nights in recent weeks.

    The reply from Marcel pretty much seals the deal that it is now confirmed to be the correct 90969.

    I doubt the blue car will ever be seen again in its last guise, it will re emerge though know doubt under another VIN.

    With regards windscreens, I guess that matter references another thread somewhere. The F40 shares the exact same shape screen as a 308/328 however it is heated in the F40, which turns it from a £350 item into a £1500 plus one. I imagine a few F40s have had them swapped out for the cheaper version either by choice or unbeknown to the owner.
     
    ronc52 and 275GTB like this.
  11. chrixxx

    chrixxx Formula Junior
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 22, 2004
    971
    Lucerne
    Full Name:
    Chris
    90969B
     
    armedferret and JK101 like this.
  12. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Mar 25, 2002
    36,212
    houston/geneva
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    Ross
    pls fill out your profile and introduce yourself.
    thanks
     
    chrixxx likes this.
  13. JAM1

    JAM1 F1 Veteran
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    Oct 22, 2004
    7,189
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    Joe
    Alternatively, he could just tell us where the blue car will turn up next or what happened to the crashed ausie car. :D;)
     
  14. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    Here is the bit I will never understand from a legal perspective in the motor industry....

    In the world of expensive art, if I was to fraudulently make a copy of a $2million dollar oil painting, try to pass it off as an original with a forged signature, then sell it on the open market or through a dealer - there is an extremely high chance I would be caught out, especially if it was a poor copy, with glaring mistakes and a badly copied signature. Art dealers and experts would do their due diligence, know their market and spot it as a fraud almost immediately. The Art Department at the Serious Fraud Squad would be contacted, I would be investigated, raided, arrested, assets seized, taken to court and likely face a custodial sentence. The fraudulent piece of art would be destroyed.

    In the car world, it would appear a car can be cloned, a poor copy of the chassis number applied, one that does not even match the displayed assembly number! The colour changed to blue from red and everything just looks absolutely brand new, nothing suspicious there? The car is put on the open market for sale, a dealer in very expensive exotic cars is involved, it would appear the most basic of due diligence is not even carried out, as all the numbers are openly on display and a mismatch could have been very easily and quickly established.
    A few dudes on a car forum see there is a problem and create a noise, which the owners and dealer quickly hear about. The car is swiftly taken off the market and pulled off the internet, it is returned to the owner, and no doubt pushed in to the darkest corner at the back of a large garage, to sit and ferment for a few more years.
    But that's it, nothing else seems happen? There would appear to be no legal ramifications even though somewhere along the chain someone has tried to pull off a multi million dollar fraud. In no way am I saying it is the current owner or the advertising dealer, they could just be the poor suckers in a chain of events that started many years ago before their involvement, and they bought/advertised the car in total innocence with good intention.
    The car may move on at a discounted price, then it may even reappear in a few years later, under a different guise and after the lessons learned the fraud is more sophisticated and works next time - some poor sucker will be in for millions.
    I know it happens, more often than we would like to think, from £1000 Fords all the way up to Pebble Beach concourse winners, but I just don't get how it is allowed to publicly happen, then just slip away?

    What about the owner of the original artwork / car - his pride and joy is dragged through the mud, he is held to account and has to prove provenance.
    Hopefully this is not the case here, as all the correct numbers have been demonstrated, but what if the original artwork or car was tarnished by the existence of a fraudulent copy, or just by association - the value is materially affect.
    I doubt this has every happened or ever will, but it would be an interesting legal president - what if the rightful owner of the original art/car was to sue the owner of the clone/fraudulent copy and seek damages?
     
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  15. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    It is a weird one with cars in particular.

    Someone steals say a £10,000 car and is caught, typically police and the courts have little interest, slap on the wrist and a suspended sentence.

    Another person steals £10,000 from a shop/bank etc and also gets caught, front page headlines and they go to prison for a good few years.
     
    willcrook likes this.
  16. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 23, 2003
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    Peter
    A mechanic in Melbourne Australia sold client cars without the owner knowing. Ferraris. Expensive 12 cylinder ones. Millions of dollars lost by people. 12 months gaol.

    Ridiculous really.
     
  17. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    #261 "Hey guys has there been any up dates and does any know the vin of the cannonball car"

    Suddenly I no longer hope for the ch.no. of Akihiro Kabe to be published on this thread.....
    This post reminded me of a certain character(s) more of us might have come across on other forums, No connection though, I hope!!
     
  18. willcrook

    willcrook Formula 3

    Feb 3, 2009
    2,129
    UK
    insurance is the difference I guess, the police in the UK don't care about stolen cars at all and sometimes blame the owners

    they do enjoy a police chase though when bored
     
  19. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,746
    Sounds a bit like the wild west..........

    Marcel Massini
     
    willcrook likes this.
  20. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    And now openly back in business in the same city, trading under the same name with a workshop full of customer cars. The mind boggles sometimes.
     
  21. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    4,417
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    In all fairness, just because someone decided to break lurker status by posting that question doesn't mean there are not several others just watching. What I mean is, the post you quoted wouldn't significantly change the outcome of the serial number of the Kano car showing up on this thread. It still might.
     
  22. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    Using the serial number of a wrecked car to try to assume the identity of a stolen car is not new, but this is the first time I have come across using an intact, known car to potentially disguise a wrecked car. The risk would not seem worth it. In any event, by the time the fraud is discovered (especially if the cars are in different jurisdictions) time has passed and they have been sold through multiple innocent buyers. It is difficult to determine which car originally bore the serial number without forensic help, as both may have long, legitimate ownership chains. The issue is what happens to the innocent buyer of the impostor car. Forget finding the original person who committed the fraud.

    If the suspicions in this thread are correct, an innocent owner of the blue car would be forced to restamp the original serial number, but likely not lose the car (unless it was originally stolen).
     
  23. Condor Man

    Condor Man F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 8, 2006
    4,843
    Los Angeles
    What if the owner of the Blue had previously been indicted on fraud charges? Do you think he would still be innocent?

    Just a thought......
     
  24. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    Indicted and convicted are two different things.

    Even if he was convicted of fraud, did the conviction have anything to do with this F40? Forging a serial number is a pretty specialized form of fraud.

    The thing that still makes little sense to me is why it would be done if the blue car was not originally a stolen car. A car which was badly crashed but well repaired and with good title, will always be worth more than a nice car with fraudulent title (which is worth close to zero as it can be seized or repossessed if the fraud is discovered).
     
  25. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,746
    At this point it is not clear yet if the blue car in the UK has anything to do with the Cannonball AUS wreck or not. But also: More than 30 (thirty) F40's were stolen over the years and not all have been recovered.
    Generally: Nobody wants a car which was possibly involved in the death of four people. Even if that car is still "more or less" intact and repairable (judging from photos). Therefore, some people may think that giving a wreck a totally different identity will wipe out any negative early history (fatal crashes, theft, fire or other major issues). Just look in the fchat Dino section for that white 246 GTS Spider that was recently for sale at auction in the UK with completely falsified chassis number, it had been stolen about 12 years ago in the UK. Fortunately a German and a Swiss did due diligence shortly before the auction and incorrect numbers were discovered, the true identity found out (thanks to other numbers found on that car) and now the rightful owner gets his car back more than a decade later.

    But back to that blue F40, questions are:
    Where is that blue car now?
    Who is the owner?
    When and from whom did the current owner purchase the blue car?
    What paperwork comes with that car? Anything?
    How did the blue car come into the UK?
    Has any fchatter actually physically seen the blue car in the UK and personally taken any detailed photographs?

    Marcel Massini
     
    megamarco9 and shad0w1oo1 like this.

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