The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397) | Page 8 | FerrariChat

The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397)

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Aircon, Jan 29, 2021.

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  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,744
    No. Most owners and also the dealers have zero idea where body numbers can be found. Most think it is irrelevant and don't care.
    I think it is super important but that's just me. I consider this part of the due diligence.

    Marcel Massini
     
    Krisatcruz, 360C, YellowF50 and 2 others like this.
  2. F40-R

    F40-R Formula 3

    Jun 22, 2014
    1,218
  3. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    can you share what makes it "Interesting"?
     
  4. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    totally agree Marcel, it is crucially important. I imagine after posting the video of where to find the body numbers there will be a lot of fog lights and spoilers being removed in the coming weeks.
     
    Krisatcruz likes this.
  5. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    I think this can now be ruled out given the photos the owner of the Red Australian car has posted showing the chassis number in the red book and the chassis number as it stands today on the car - they are one of the same, and have the machine stamped section followed by the 5 hand stamped numbers 90969.

    I wonder if the chassis number Birel posted (which looks all hand stamped) was yes off a red car in Japan, but a certain red car carrying the wrong chassis number that was later changed to a blue car?
     
  6. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    When you say "numerous local posters on this thread know at least parts of the history but it is unlikely anybody will go on record" are you referring to the history of the CannonBall F40 or the red F40 for sale in NSW?

    that must give the owner of the red F40 in NSW a lot of comfort.

    Having followed Marcel for years, having total confidence in his work, files and knowledge, I would sleep easier at night knowing he agrees with "I'm confident that the Red Australian F40 is the real 90969"
     
  7. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    It must also be remembered that many F40s have had the odd prang here and there and as such may not be wearing their original clams, sidepods or doors which could explain if original body numbers are no longer present on certain components.
     
    360C and 275GTB like this.
  8. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    Hi, I am so happy that this thread appeared and expanded so quickly, that you got wind of it before you closed the deal, you must be thanking your lucky stars!
    It is also great to hear that the guys at Kaaimans done the honourable thing and returned your deposit immediately.

    Can I ask, why you went for this car in the first place?

    I know bakes17 quoted the car was in great shape, and he had very good F40 knowledge:
    Was the Classiche red book an important part of the decision?

    From what I hear there was very little history, invoice or records with the car, and obviously the colour was non-original

    many thanks for share your post with us.

    Mark
     
  9. Carsmith

    Carsmith Rookie

    Jun 2, 2005
    12
    Palm Beach
     
  10. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    The blue F40 "clone 90969" could well be 85397 judging by the Assembly no. plate, which looks original, correct and legit.
    There is a sense from some cryptic messages and other untold stories here that this assembly no. have been seen on a F40 wreck in OZ in the past.

    Is it totally unfounded to speculate that the blue F40 in fact is/was Akihiro Kabe's F40 85397 that crashed so horribly during the '94 Cannonball Run??

    In September 2017 there was the case of 80726 offered for sale by Silverstone Auctions which was withdrawn when its gruesome history came to light.

    More details in this thread : https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f40-silverstone-auctions-withdrawn.559704/
     
  11. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,292
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Joe Sackey
    Mark, I think the the twins are smiling because they know their F40 retains all-original components per the manufacturer.

    Seriously, though, IMO the moral of the story is twofold:

    1. Beware of cheap F40s.

    2. Due diligence is always key.
     
    275GTB likes this.
  12. Birel

    Birel Formula 3

    Sep 12, 2005
    1,877
    Brisbane
    Full Name:
    Andrew Turner
    Mark,
    I saw the car but was respectful not to take photos or ask nosy questions. I'm just relying on memory but I don't remember what year it was. 2005 would be a guess, I was in town packing up a Messerschmitt Me109 we had sold to Germany.....another fun story for the memoirs book.
    Do I believe what I saw was the Cannonball wreck?......I do. Do I have proof?.....No.
     
    PAUL500 likes this.
  13. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    thanks Andrew, appreciate the reply, I am sure it is all out there, I am sure we will hear more.

    I love that "I was in town packing up a Messerschmitt Me109 we had sold to Germany" - as you do! How could there not be a funny story, brilliant!

    Here is a Messerschmitt Me109, not the little 3 wheel bubble car as I initially imagined :)

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    merstheman likes this.
  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

    Nov 19, 2008
    10,017
    Cardiff, UK
    Full Name:
    Steven Robertson
    I was speaking to somebody today who will no longer post on Fchat due to the ridiculous time limit on editing a post. A real shame.

    Apologies for the off topic.
     
  15. Dijit

    Dijit Karting

    Feb 4, 2017
    111
    Hampshire
    Having read this thread and the others referred to, I can’t help but contemplate what will happen to a proven “fake” car. Does Ferrari intervene for instance or some other trading standards body?
     
  16. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Mar 25, 2002
    36,212
    houston/geneva
    Full Name:
    Ross
    what i cant understand is how somebody with the remains of 85397, would not simply reconstruct the car as a rebuilt 85397?
    would not be the first time that an f40 was wrecked and rebuilt.
    there is a price for this, not as high as an unmolested one of course, but a good price and at least it would be a real car.

    what prompts that owner to try to dissimulate 85397 as some other car altogether?
    is it just to get the higher sales price? i suppose that could be the reason but the downside to that is what we are seeing here.

    just seems to make no sense.
     
    LVP488 likes this.
  17. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Jun 23, 2003
    100,524
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Peter
    I was wondering the same thing. Maybe one needs to be a criminal to understand lol
     
    LVP488 likes this.
  18. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

    May 26, 2011
    1,722
    Santa Monica, CA
    I'm assuming so the owner can represent the car as one with no damage history making it more valuable, little did they know how the internet and technology would catch up.
     
  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #194 PAUL500, Feb 5, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
    Whoever did the VIn swap obviously had no idea the original VIN could still be traced back via the assembly number, otherwise that would have been tampered with as well, all probably done pre internet when it was much harder to find such info.

    VIN swapping was rife is race car circles when customs carnets were required to cross borders, as they specified a certain VIN, so if the car was crashed the race before, then often the sister car would take the VIN of the crashed one in order to enter the next international race, sometimes they then kept that VIN.

    Similar may well have been done to the blue car in order to avoid heavy import duties by taking the ID of the red car which was already in that particular country, namely either Japan or Aus, or to get the car out of the country legally if the actual car was stolen.

    There is a vast import business in Dubai bringing Japanese domestic market cars into the region for resale into India etc, this is probably how that guy came upon the blue car originally and he may well have had no idea either that it was a clone.

    One scenario may well be that in order to get the cannonball car into Aus for the race it simply took the VIN of an F40 already in the county to make import easier (which was very hard and expensive in 94), then once the race was over it would head back to Japan and return to its original VIN, however the accident put a major spanner in that plan and the VIN actually stayed on the car even once it went back there.

    All sorts of dodgy things are done in these events.
     
    Demigod555 and saadxj220 like this.
  20. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    This post was written before/during PAUL500 posted his above. I fully agree with his thoughts too.


    The status of 85397 is yet to be confirmed, but theoretically it could be ill fated '94 Cannonball Run F40.

    That was rumoured to have been in scrapyard for a while, after it was subject of an investigation?
    If that's the case there should be an official accident and technical report available. (With ch.no. mentioned)

    Did the NT authorities confiscate it and demand it to be scrapped, or maybe the Japanese insurance company did?
    The chassis number would then possibly have been blacklisted and noted as scrapped both in OZ and Japan. (?)

    The owner of the scrapyard could have been approached and give an offer too good to refuse.....
    Maybe 90969 had been exported from OZ and such the chassis number became available, saves import duties too.

    Alternatively used just to import the car into Japan without officially exporting it from OZ?
    There have been stories about many F40s going to Japan which have had chequered history....

    This is just speculation, the full history of 90969 needs to be documented and 85397 likewise to get any further.
    What ch.no. Akihiro Kabe's F40 had is of great interest even if it should prove not to be 85397.

    Those who have first hand knowledge about the cloned (now) blue F40 and/or the rebuild of the crashed
    Kabe F40 is not likely to come forward.

    Kaaiman is not likely to provide much detail either, if there had been a photo of the ch.no, stamping in the
    sales description just it could have been compared to the photo in Post #40 which allegedly shows the bodged stamping
    of the 90969 that was for sale in Japan in 2012.

    The information is out there, we can only hope it will come together soon.
     
    PAUL500 likes this.
  21. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
    1,907
    London
    Full Name:
    Mark McCracken
    surely "jkeller" the gentleman that almost purchased the blue car from Kaaimans (post 146) - he is in Texas, USA and the car in the UK - as part of his pre-purchase due diligence requested scanned copies of the Classiche, all associated paper work, plus a multitude of additional photos of the important parts of the car (chassis stampings, tags, etc) ?
     
  22. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    3,136
    #197 PAUL500, Feb 5, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
    More than likely, but now he has had his deposit returned will he want to get involved by posting such up, lets see.

    Here is another scenario regarding the duplicate red book:-

    Red Aus car goes through Classiche in 2014

    Fast forward a year or so later and the Dubai chap has bought his car out of Japan (post cannonball and still on the wrong VIN) and sends it to Italy for rework and a repaint. At the same time he asks them to Classiche it.

    Said company contacts Ferrari and they say " we only did it a year or so ago, it must have been kept by the old owner, for xxx euro we can simply send you a new copy! and job done.

    No one is any the wiser there are actually two cars on the same VIN until now!

    I believe its only in recent years that Ferrari introduced annual inspections?
     
    shad0w1oo1 and Collesano like this.
  23. Collesano

    Collesano Karting

    Jan 14, 2017
    167
    England UK
    #198 Collesano, Feb 5, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
    It was said in Post #146 that the sellers were working feverishly to get to the bottom of this, and report back once it was done.
    Surely no one would have the extreme cynicism required to think that the post was meant to act as a fire extinguisher on behalf of Kaaiman.
     
  24. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    4,417
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
    Quie a few F40's were stolen........
     
  25. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,839
    France
    This is fascinating...
    Another question worth answering is whether the claimed Classiche certification of the blue car is just another forgery or a terrible job from Maranello.
     

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