The real F40 with VIN 90969? (2nd is 85397)

Re first photo in post #118 and my post #121 and because of the stupid time limit on fchat (that doesn't allow editing after 18 minutes) I try here again:

The fourth letter of the 17-digit VIN number stamping here - to my eyes only - looks a bit like a "C" to me rather than a "G" (ZFFCJ..... rather than ZFFGJ.....). Or maybe there is just too much black paint on the horizontal leg of the "G"? Or am I too critical? And yes, of course, if that were a "C" rather than a "G" the lower part of that letter wouldn't come up as high as on the photo? Happy to be corrected, of course.

Marcel Massini

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You mean 85397, not 85387.
85387 is not an F40.

Marcel Massini

 

It's already a mess with two cars apparently using the same #............

Marcel Massini

 

You mean 85397, not 85387.
85387 is not an F40.

Marcel Massini

 

Ian Kershaw is the money in Kaaimans.
Tolson is the sales guy (ex Tom Hartley).

Paul

 

Sorry my mistake, indeed I do mean 85397.

 

I'm wondering if the 3rd F40 that may or may not have had some involvement in all this is a seldom seen local car that was at one time owned concurrently by the original Australian importer of 90969. Could that be 85397 ?

Hence my request for information on the history and whereabouts of 85397.

 

In the past a person named "Abdul Razak Mohammed Nezir Amin" appears to have been involved with one of the "90969" F40s:
Googling leads to:
Mohammed Amin Abdul Nezir Razak Trading Co. LLC, Dubai, UAE.
Biz occupation: Traders of Perfumes & Cosmetics, Ready-made Garments, Shoe, Suitcases & Travel Requisites, Toys & Games, Carpets, Watches & Spare Parts.

I like the "spare parts" segment and just think of that badly crashed Japanese F40 in Australia 24 May 1994.

Marcel Massini

 

edit,

having looked at the red book pic again and the latest one of the current VIN, they do appear to be the same, and its the same carbon lining, as a distinct flaw in the weave is present in the same place in both pics. However its now sporting incorrect hold down bolts.

It also now appears that the plates are stamped first and then welded to the structure rather than stamped straight into the chassis member, which does not help matters, other than being able to match spot welds as no two VINS would have them in the exact same place.

With regards the use of a spare tyre, its interesting that Burago when they released the early 1/18 scale F40 model based on a 5 vent prototype, actually included a spare tyre in the front trunk, so at a guess it was something planned to be fitted, that never got to production in the end.

 

The "Cannonball F40" was owned and driven by a Japanese Dentist by the name of Akihiro Kabe. The harrowing photo of the marshalls seconds before they were struck and killed by Kabe is one you don't forget in a hurry.

I don't know if Kabe was the original owner of the car; but I know for sure the car left Australia and went back to Japan after the accident. I obviously don't know what the S/N of the car is; but if it has anything to do with all of this it would be the Blue English F40 and not the Red Australian F40.

I'm confident that the Red Australian F40 is the real 90969. I'm sure numerous local posters on this thread know at least parts of the history but it is unlikely anybody will go on record.



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Thank you and I agree with all that.

Marcel Massini

 

Here's the chassis number from the red 90969 in OZ as it's photographed for the Red Book.

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Here's the most recent photo posted by the seller/owner in Post #118. It looks the same, apart from incorrect screws fitted.



It looks passable, but with the uncertainty created by the appearance of the blue clone from Dubai only serious investigations
would remove all doubt. Nothing else on that red example looks suspect and is most probably the genuine 90969.

Here's the very suspect stamping from the "90969" offered for sale in Japan in 2012. (Post #104)



A couple of articles of the methods used to recover the original number if removed, altered or otherwise tampered with.

https://www.evidencemagazine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2036&Itemid=49

An even more scientific report from the University of Ferrara.

I have a strong feeling the blue "Dubai F40" will not be submitted for such an investigation......
The owner/seller of the red example in OZ should have every interest of have every doubts removed.

(And Ferrari Classiche too I would think.....)

But the search for 85397 will hopefully have more chance of a successful outcome, or not....

PS. F40 spare wheel provision. (OT!)

Regarding 76687 (Prototipo # ??) and the spare wheel strap, I'm confident this was on the car from its first build
and that the initial plan was for the F40 to have a spare wheel of similar "space saver" design of the other contemporary models.

The design of the tub indicates that and there would be room for one, why they decided against it can be for various reasons.

 

edit, error made in dates, so will repost

 

Ah yes, I realised that and deleted the post but it seems you were in the process of quoting it, I will re write and repost.

 

The first two pictures above of the stamped VINs completely match, agreed. The G that looks close to a C, the incomplete left star, the Z with not very sharp edges, the first F with a shorter lower horizontal segment... even a dent in the kevlar/fiber just above the "34". IMO we are looking at the same chassis, same stamped VIN.

 

Looking closely one more time, I'll add that the most recent picture might show a very slight reposition of the stamped VIN vs. the kevlar/fiber. See the small dent I commented before, now looks to be centered exactly above the "4" more than the "34" as in the older picture. Meaning the new screws were probably involved in some unscrewing/re-screwing work performed.

 

There are some details that needs looking into regarding the ch.no. stamping on the red 90969 in OZ, to remove any doubts.
However there is no doubt that the latest photo from Post #118 is the same stamping as shown in the Red Book for that car.

Hence my reference to articles metallurgic methods to establish if a stamped number have been altered, ground off/restamped etc.
Another method is of course to cut out a whole section of the chassis (of a wrecked car) and weld it into the chassis of a stolen one.

I'm not suggesting that is the case with the red example currently offered for sale in OZ.

Finding the chassis no. from the F40 that was involved in the horrible accident during the Cannonball Run in '94 would help to possibly
eliminate that car's role in this ID mystery. It looks to be an early car with sliding windows, BUT it can have been modified of course.

Secondly there is the question regarding 85397 and its current status, or if it's in fact the blue "Dubai F40" with the ch.no from 90969!?

The latter is likely to "disappear" now that the heat have been put on it, no more videos on YouTube in the foreseeable future I think...

My guess is that they have unscrewed them and lifted the tub to see if there's any signs of tampering, since this issue was raised here on FC.

 

I had been in contact with Kaaimans to purchase the blue F40. In fact, I had placed a deposit last Friday. I'm guessing the reason the car was pulled from their site was because I had made the deposit. All was well and on track to be serviced at the local dealer and to have a PPI performed, until I woke up Tuesday morning and found one of my whatsapp groups talking about this post. In the end, Kaaimans called and was very forthcoming and honest about the situation, refunding my deposit immediately. I can't say enough good things about the communication between us this entire time. With respect to the current owner and the car, all I can say is that it appears to have been a surprise to everyone. They are working feverishly to get to the bottom of it, to obtain what history they can and to answer all of the questions that surround the car. I'm confident we'll hear more once everything has been sorted.

 

Thank heavens you did, and well done them for being up front about it all once this thread got going.

I wonder if the VIN Birel posted was actually from the blue car when it was still red in Japan back in 2012

The cannonball car could have been a red herring in all this. I guess it will all unfold now in time.

 

The '94 Cannonball Run F40 might be a red herring, but in the entry list for the event it's listed as a "1991 Ferrari F40"
Sliding windows is then probably a retro fit, the car seems to have had a very chequered history after the fatal accident.
Mentioned here in the Dutch forum on FC, no other link or sources other than a reference to Mr Massini.

Surely someone will know the chassis number of that car, just so it can be eliminated from this case, or get its own thread...

We can only hope the details of the blue F40 and its history will be revealed, likewise with 85397.

 

I know that the first 50 or so cars had the sliding windows, but I believe after that it was an option still, but most went the wind up window route, so a 91 car could still have had them from new.

 

I think that’s folklore about the first 50 cars from what I’ve been told.


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