Brake pedal slow to return | FerrariChat

Brake pedal slow to return

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by spikef15c, Feb 1, 2021.

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  1. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    Hi everyone. I am trying to trouble shoot an issue that I am having with a 1990 Testarossa, US version, but likely isn’t unique to just that version. The issue, as the title eludes to, is my brake pedal is exceedingly slow to return to the up position at certain times. Of note, I recently had the calipers redone for a different issue, but I don’t think this is related. I had brake pedal return issues prior as well. Here are some specifics:
    The issue is really only noticed when I press the brake pedal AND the clutch pedal at the same time. Brake pedal alone with engine on or off, and the pedal returns quickly (within a second of release). Brake pedal with the clutch pedal down and it takes multiple seconds for the brake pedal to return to the “up” position. The return time is longer with successive brake pedal pushes and with the engine running.
    So things I don’t think it is—soft brake lines (I have replaced those), brake master cylinder (I had this rebuilt), brake pads or calipers (new or rebuilt). And I have bled the brakes and clutch per the work shop manual or owners manual (which really aren’t detailed at all).
    Any suggestions or experience with something similar? I really appreciate the help.
    Thanks,
    Spike
     
  2. kartboy1234

    kartboy1234 Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2014
    694
    Palos Verdes, CA
    Full Name:
    Michael L
    Do you hear any hissing coming from the brake booster? Could be a vacuum leak.

    Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,145
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #3 Steve Magnusson, Feb 1, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
    Has not been a commonly reported problem AFAIK -- is the return spring (141531) on the brake pedal OK and in place? There are quite a few bushings and pivots in the (multi-lever) mechanism.
     
  4. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    I can hear some sounds from the brake booster, but I don’t think it sounds abnormal for a booster. I could be wrong, obviously. One check I have done on the booster is to press down on the brake pedal with the car off and continue pressing. As I start the engine, the brake pedal does depress slightly. I think this tests at least part of the booster as normal.
     
  5. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    Hi, Steve. I did do a search and as you said, this doesn’t seem to be too common. The return spring is normal on the brake and clutch pedal.
     
  6. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,931
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    Grease Donkey likes this.
  7. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    Thanks, Romano. I will certainly check those. But based on when the delayed brake return was occurring, I thought it was more related to a pressure issue. That was leading me to believe it was either related to a brake booster internal problem or possibly a clutch master cylinder issue. I can’t seem to figure it out, though.
     
  8. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,931
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    I think the brake pedal not come back as normal?

    may be they used bad rubber material for the seals inside and the brake fluid makes this material to get larger?

    I just tested for a customer from the US a 512TR in germany what he wanted to buy. an equal problem: the brake pedal come back slowly but still ok, only the last about 5 mm was not coming back. always had to go with my food under the pedal to get it complete back. but after driving about 20 minutes it was getting better. so I think that this car had the same problems as yours?
    but I not checked what was wrong, had only to inspect the car.
     
  9. qwazipsycho

    qwazipsycho Formula 3

    Oct 30, 2004
    1,176
    Utah
    Full Name:
    Scott
    I had this same problem when I bought my car back in 2000. Took it to the stealership and they claimed they fixed it but nothing changed. I noticed that it only happened when the outside temps were above 80F. I found that after flushing the fluid, the problem went away. I assume you probably already did that when you had your calipers done. Just a thought.
     
  10. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,931
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    :) :) :)
     
  11. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    Quazipsycho, I seem to notice mine more in colder temps. But I did use all new fluid in the bleeding process.
    Romano, I only thought the clutch master cylinder could be part of the issue since the brake pedal issue really only occurs when the clutch pedal is also depressed. I think this symptom may have more to do with the pressure on the overall fluid system instead of the actual clutch cylinder. As I’m sure you already know, both systems share fluid from the same brake fluid reservoir. And similar to your experience, I could use my foot to bring the brake pedal back to the raised position. It would return on its own, but very slowly.
    I also considered the vacuum servo valve (part #5 in Romano’s supplied diagram above), but it appears to work normally. It allows some airflow one direction only.
    After everyone’s comments, I guess I am leaning more toward this being a brake booster (or brake servo in some circles) problem. I am just kind of thrown by the brake pedal being normal unless I also depress the clutch pedal.
     
  12. Grease Donkey

    Grease Donkey Karting

    Jul 5, 2018
    98
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Had the same problem.

    The grease on the spindle that holds the pedal gets old and dry. Very much like the locking mechanism on the luggage compartment. It's the same grease.

    I've applied larger quantities of WD40 on the areas that turbo-joe higlighted and then the break pedal came back more easily.

    Flushing break fluid helped, but needed to be done several times until the fluid stayed clear.
     
    2dinos likes this.
  13. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    I’ll give that a shot and see how it goes. Thanks for the recommendation.
     
    Grease Donkey likes this.
  14. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 30, 2006
    4,900
    Troy, Michigan
    Full Name:
    James
    Trust him, his name checks out.
     
    raysur likes this.
  15. qwazipsycho

    qwazipsycho Formula 3

    Oct 30, 2004
    1,176
    Utah
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Something else just hit me. Getting that sucker bled completely. It was difficult. I always seem to need to break the connection in the line where the subframe connects.
     
  16. spikef15c

    spikef15c Rookie

    Sep 8, 2009
    31
    Northern Texas
    Yesterday, I took the opportunity to remove the driver’s seat and do some body contortions to clean and lubricate the pivot points that you all recommended I check. Really, they looked fine with just a little bit of grease showing on a few of the pivot points. The more I considered it, the more it made sense that an increased torsional effect of pressing the the clutch pedal could directly affect the release of the brake pedal if the grease was causing it. This could also be worsened by the colder temperatures, which was what I was experiencing.
    The result is that the brake pedal returns much more consistently and in a much quicker fashion after my attempts to lubricate those points. Thanks again for everyone’s help in narrowing down the possible fault. I really appreciate it. I think I need to drive it more to ensure it doesn’t “gum up” in the future.
    Spike
     
    turbo-joe and Grease Donkey like this.
  17. Grease Donkey

    Grease Donkey Karting

    Jul 5, 2018
    98
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Thanks for letting us know.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.

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