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Red Bull F1

Discussion in 'F1' started by NEP, Apr 18, 2018.

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  1. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    Sep 12, 2004
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    We’ll see how happy RBR will be to run the Honda if it turns out to be the 4th best engine and development is frozen.

    Between development freezes and tokens F1 is really losing its appeal—to me at least. Teams are burning through millions designing and building jewel-like details and yet their hands are tied for making fundamental concept changes or improvements to catch the competition within the relative possibilities offered by stable rules.
     
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  2. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Really token shouldn't be necessary in future once the budget cap is introduced; that should be the development limiter, no?

    I can't still fathom out why the engine development (and the tyres ?) could be frozen, but not the aero which is the big spender.

    The FIA works in strange ways ...
     
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  3. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Keeps Mercedes happy
     
  4. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    I agree yet there are not many periods where the rules were perfect. RedBull are using the timing of rules juncture near a major change to gain an advantage in terms of cost. Sorry - you need the motor, you pay the price. Other teams have zero need to accommodate this at all. RedBull are choosing to do this for an engine. They have another option with Renault. Its a choice.
     
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  5. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  6. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Red Bull and Honda deal in jeopardy: teams disagree on engine freeze

    With great optimism, Red Bull Racing announced last week that it would drive Honda engines in 2022. The deal between the two parties seemed just a formality and the engine freeze was to come. However, there is currently a major stalemate in Formula 1, RacingNews365 has learned.

    The Formula 1 teams seemed to be heading for an agreement on the freeze of engine development, the so-called engine freeze, from 2022. It was one of the great demands that Red Bull set to race independently with Honda engines from that season.

    The Japanese engine supplier will officially leave Formula 1 at the end of 2021, which means that Red Bull must look for an alternative solution. Because the competition is by no means hot, Mercedes in the lead, to provide Red Bull with engines and the team of Max Verstappen wanted to keep control, an ambitious plan was set up to continue racing with the engines of Honda.

    Red Bull would take over the knowledge, technology and part of the staff from the Japanese and thus from 2022 race with the Honda engines, which will be renamed and given a (sponsor) name to be determined. A precondition for this, however, was that the development of the F1 engines would be stopped. This is because Red Bull is not in a position, both technologically and financially, to further develop the engines.

    The engine freeze was discussed by the F1 teams, the FIA, the F1 and the engine suppliers. Partly because of the corona crisis, all parties involved want to drastically reduce costs and stopping development would be a good option for this. The parties involved were therefore not unwilling to do so.

    One aspect that not everyone was happy with is a Balance of Performance system. If a particular engine supplier would have a major advantage after the introduction of the engine freeze, then there should be a mechanism that can ensure that that advantage is limited and the performance of the different engines is equalized.

    A meeting would be scheduled last Monday to vote on the proposals. Of the 34 votes (1 per team, 10 for the FIA, 10 for F1 and 1 per engine supplier), 27 must vote for the proposals in order for them to be implemented. However, this vote was not taken. A senior Red Bull source told RacingNews365 : "The goodwill that was there last Friday suddenly disappeared on Monday."

    An important Formula 1 meeting is planned for 11 February, where the engine program for the coming years will be discussed. Next Wednesday there will also be a meeting between all team bosses, but the engine freeze will not be the most important item on the agenda.

    Certain teams are not in favor of the engine freeze as long as they do not know what the new engine formula for F1 will be, which should take effect in 2025 or 2026.

    The competition is also concerned about the possible big step (s) that Honda has taken in recent months. Red Bull team boss Christian Horner and advisor Helmut Marko firmly believe that the Japanese have built a very good engine and will do everything they can to say goodbye with the world title in 2021.

    The Balance of Performance, which would be dictated by restrictions with the fuel flow meter, also causes discussion. Not all parties involved agree that this is the right way to create a level playing field, where that level playing field itself is also a source of discussion.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=https://racingnews365.nl/red-bull-en-honda-deal-in-gevaar-teams-niet-akkoord-over-engine-freeze&prev=search&pto=aue
     
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  7. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    RedBull think the other teams are naive. Pay! This is simple - Pay Honda for a team under contract to develop or buy Renault PU's. Simple. I consider this above to be 'positive' for F1. Competition. RedBull always want this yes????
     
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  8. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    I’m pretty sure when Renault quit F1 in the late ‘90s and the engines were rebadged Supertec, they had more development than RBR plan to do.

    At this point why not freeze all development after 2021, don’t bother racing to save money and keep the same championship standings every year till 2026.

    As was mentioned here already, why don’t RBR propose to freeze aero development. After all some teams are “not in a position, both technologically and financially, to further develop the” aero.
     
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  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    Because F1 is about making the cars faster every time they hit the track !

    Why not institute a rule where the full sized cars are run in a wind tunnel, have their downforce measured at various speeds, and ahndicap any car that has too much downforce ?? Here you would get pairity in aero !!

    Why not ??

    Because F1 is about making the cars faster every time they hit the track !
     
  10. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I am only a layman, but I mentioned that solution several times over the years on this forum.
    I heard it first from an aerodynamicist I knew, who wasn't connected with motor racing.
    Set a maximum value for downforce, and enforce it with a wind tunnel test at the begining of the year when the cars are homologated.
    Then the aero configuration is frozen on all cars, and some are randomly checked during the season.
    Simple and very efficient my interlocutor told me.
    I bet that would save a lot of money !
     
  11. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Red Bull wants to have its cake and eat it too.

    I am glad they have been opposed.
     
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  12. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So, everybody is delighted, proud and exited.

    What can possibly go wrong ?
     
  13. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    The whole reason why RBR want to limit spend on the engine is quite simple: FIA still hasn't decided what will happen to the engines next, so for RBR to pump hundreds of millions into a project that could be obsolete a year later is not a great ROI. Especially since they have no real use for the technology and the way the world is going (still pointlessly chasing electric cars), have no one to sell the tech to.
     
  14. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    Whatever new engine formula is agreed it’ll still be like 4 years out. How can you expect teams to stand still for 4 years? Would RBR agree to freeze their aero for 4 years since a new engine formula will certainly impact aero rules?

    If RBR want to become engine builders they should put their money where their mouth is. Or just cut their losses and pay for some Renaults.
     
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  15. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    I get your point, I really do...but the current engines where brought in under the guise to cut costs and bring teams closer together. Cost went stratospheric and teams are miles apart. With the global situation economically speaking will get a lot worse before it'll get better, cutting costs all round isn't such a bad idea. Especially if all engines can come to be roughly around the same power, much like the V8 era. Mercedes, Honda and Renault aren't that far apart in race trim it seems, only Ferrari being miles away (lets see what 2021 brings).
     
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  16. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Veteran
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    I hate the current engine rules also but even worse is the removal of even the hope that, like Ferrari this year, a team can (hope) to close the performance gap to the competition. It probably can’t but hope is the last thing to die. So, yes, the engine formula is a mistake and expensive but until the alternative is agreed let’s keep F1 a competition of tech also.

    A bit like the token nonsense for 2021–probably won’t make a huge difference—but sad to know a team (cough, cough Ferrari) can’t go fix everything they know needs fixing on their car.
     
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  17. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    Yep agreed.

    I loathe the tokens, once again. A concept that failed so miserably and now they again apply it but to more areas of the car. You can't do that with such big performance differences.

    I do think that, lets say if the 2021 engines are (magically) close together, a cap could be introduced...provided all engines are close to each other.
     
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  18. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    This is no longer about motorsport, this is about advertisers trying to lower their cost per thousand of views. The only race that was even mildly exciting this last year was when the track was resurfaced too close to the race, and the cars could barely stay on it. Suddenly the technology became far less important than the driver. If the sport can't survive with teams being able to go all out in trying to beat each other, then it becomes wrestling on roller skates, an expensive form of roller derby. At this point, there isn't an honest team on the grid that I can cheer for.
     
  19. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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  20. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

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  21. johnmorganhere

    Feb 2, 2021
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    Hi there, it is more interesting how new member will drive in ferrari f1 team.
     
  22. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie

    If that was true, why does F1 remove fast corners and replace with Mickey Mouse chicanes ?

    If F1 wanted the fastest racing it would delete fuel flow rates and reintroduce refueling.
     
  23. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    You are talking about the track owners and rules keepers.
    I was talking about the teams constructing the cars themselves.
     
  24. simpen

    simpen Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2016
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    Removing fast corners basically proves the point, cars get faster and faster up to a point where the installed safety measures can no longer absorb the kinetic energy in the event of a crash. Hence track layouts are modified
     
  25. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    Sure.
    I am talking about the overall Net effect.

    There's zero logic to building faster cars when the actual racing is slowed by FIA.

    10 lap tyres and refueling would be a good start to circumvent the impact of Mickey Mouse chicanes.
     

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