365 BB Chassis 17553 Nut and Bolt Restoration

Wow looks fantastic. What are your plans for the exhaust system?

 

Will it be possible for someone like Newman to be doing this very thing in 2068 on a 2021 812 Superfast?

Or would the onboard computers etc just not make it possible?

 

As sad as it might be, I don´t think, that it will be easy to restore such a car in 2068.. Most probably impossible.

 

I'd be willing to bet that by then, there will be some individuals that are capable of replacing the computers with modern home-brewed equivalents.

Just take a look at what's going on in the Arduino world right now. It's pretty easy to program a device to take a set of inputs, either digital or analog, and react in some manner -- change an output, drive a device, light up a panel, etc. It's so easy and cheap that they sell $15 kits on Amazon for kids to learn how to program and build devices. My adult son and I are currently using an Arduino and a 3-D printer to replicate the functionality of a G1000 (aircraft avionics) for flight sim. Turns out that it's fairly easy to get the arduino to recognize switches, encoders, pots, etc -- encode the proper response and then send it on to MS flight sim or X-Plane.

Also, take a look at what is going on in the home-built drone world. Lots of home development for flight controllers, autopilots, nav systems and more.

Given that, some enterprising person could figure out what the inputs and outputs of an auto computer are/should be, and program some modern device to imitate those actions.

Sid

 

If there was someone that talented the manufacturers should hire them now, because as we all know the computers from the factory never work correctly anyway

 

I'm contemplating retirement in the next year. Maybe I'll give it a go once I leave industry.

I may be old, But I'm still a pretty good engineer and coder.

Sid

 

Paul, need a Boxer restoration fix. It's been over 30 days since your last post. Starting to get a twitch.

 

I'll update next week I promise!

I have the exhaust waiting, its reproduced by Ansa like it was in 74. Pretty cool system.

 

A number of years ago I was at a Ferrari dealer getting a tour of the overflow storage of inventory in the basement. We came upon a new 599GTO and my question was "who's going to restore that car in 40 years?" Without hesitation he said "no one, the car will be scrapped not restored".

Not that it isn't possible, just not a good financial decision. There will be some techie out there repairing the computers to keep the cars on the road but the cars are almost like appliances now. The new cars are connected to wifi like a new Miele dishwasher and just as disposable in my opinion. Maybe when the only options are electric or hydrogen powered 3D printed ferraris that drive themselves and all the 308's and boxers are in museums it'll make sense to restore a 599 or a LaFerrari.

 

And that just ****ing sucks

 

First and foremost: fantastic work you do, Paul! You're setting a standard.

On the 599/LaFerrai restoration I beg to differ.

We all agree that the high tech cars like 599 etc will be very difficut to keep on the road at one point. They will depreciate significantly because of the associated cost. With depreciation I mean at least relatively to other assets, ie. in real terms, may be not in nominal terms based on the current monetary policy in place globally. For example: a 308 will cost 150k$ in 10 years and a 599 will still cost 110k$.

At this point in time a new breed of owners with a penchant to fiddling with software will join the F-car ownership circle. These new enthusiasts will dig into the details of the electronics, software etc and keep the cars roadworthy. They are likely not yet active in Ferrari forums, born after 1990 and have grown up using stuff like github. Technical documentation from Ferrari will be available. Fixing any electronics or software problem won't be a real issue, if smart people are made to work on it. Most of them will do this on a volonteer basis. Just for the fun of it. Just like the OpenSource software which runs the internet (Linux).

This knowledge base build by an unpaid crowd of enthusiasts will enable some shops to do proper restorations and technology upgrades for paying customers. Ultimately this development will lead to an increase in (relative) value of these cars after some time (another 5-10 years if you ask me). Then it will be 2040, the folks born in 1990 will have turned 50 and buy their first old F-car.....

Essentially the skill set required to do restorations will evolve. The skill set is different for pre-war cars already today. It's just a question of time....

PS: maybe not a 100% proof, but a demonstration of the power of the enthusiast crowd: new chip tuning for the Porsche 928 has recently become available. On a 30+ years old car full of electronics (ABS, "ESP", individually controlled electronic injectors). Who would have guessed that 10 years ago?

 

Good day Grease Donkey,

Who knows what the future will hold, but being in the electronics industry I disagree that over time some group of people will be able to directly support the core electronics of these highly electronically based cars. I say this because the electronic complexity these days is far and beyond what was used in previous generation cars and this trend is continuing and increasing. Effectively, the complexity has doubled every few years which somewhat paralleled the silicon device industry. As a result, auto manufacturers now distribute the electronic control to several subsystems that communication with one another using specialty and proprietary protocols at times. So to try and support these cars, one must understand and reverse engineer multiple subsystems, protocols, etc. Adding to this a lot of manufacturers now use custom microcontrollers/processors that are not generally available and/or may have unique features and characteristics that would have to be understood. As an example, some systems use on-the-fly encryption, safety protocols, etc... and so one would need to deal with this too.

Now, if the original systems embedded firmware was somehow discovered or found, then to support these systems one would need to have access to the development tools that originally created the firmware along with the development environment (computer). If current and recent history is an indicator, trying to find, install, and use old software on newer computer systems is either a ton of work and simply not possible unless someone has kept and maintained old computer systems that could be decades old. As for the original firmware... I do not know if you have any experience developing firmware or software, but the code density tends to be very large these days. On my side I routinely have to write 5000 to 50000 lines of firmware/software for my projects and even though I am the author of this software it is a lot of effort to revisit my code a few years later to fix a bug or add a new feature. Now, trying to review, understand, and modify someone else's code would be a lot more work and is highly dependent on how the original author wrote his software.

Personally I think it would be far easier for future supporters of these cars to simply create new "boxes" to replace the original controllers and reuse the existing sensors. Using new replacement devices would be far easier to maintain, but would require a fundamental understanding of how these car's sensors, controllers, and system work. Again, using history as a guide, in the 70's, 80's, etc a lot of car owners could and would work on their cars and perform basic maintenance and troubleshooting. Today, I believe that we have the opposite and now a lot (majority ?) of current model car owners (all makes) lack any real understanding and capabilities (skills, tools) to support and maintain their current cars. Supporting older cars now is absolutely trivial as compared to the latest and specialty cars of today and so going forward I can see the complexity increasing.

Cheers,

Sam

 

I hear often that the price of a Testarossa is depressed due to maintenance costs and from personal experience the bosch KE system is a bit of a drag. I know how to fix them but I sure don't enjoy it and finding certain parts is a big problem. I can see that being a deterrent for sure and this applies to a newer model even more. I personally don't want a more complicated Ferrari that will lose factory support at the 10 year mark full of driver aids and all of the electronics that goes along with it. Exotic materials glued together, layers of material sandwiched together under pressure (like a corvette floor made out of balsa wood) is another issue. The ability to duplicate the processes will make it financially devastating or impossible if one were to undertake a full restoration on a dead car with issues. The other factor unrelated to cost is the desire to have 3 pedals and a car that was being built when Enzo was walking around the factory. The new cars make me yawn and who in the boardroom thought Ferrari La Ferrari was a good name? Too much wine perhaps?

 

Makes me glad I’m only interested in cars made in the 70s and 80s.

 

When I talk to Fernando at Competizione, he talks about the 599 the way you talk about the BB series. It's kind of funny, he thinks the newer cars are junk and the 599 is a tank!

 

I personally like the 599 but not the GTO version, that's the only modern Ferrari I would consider but it would need to be a manual trans, minimal options and black.

 

Not sure if Ferrari of Ontario received any 3 pedal 599 GTB models. There was one customer coming from a 575 manual who considered ordering the manual for his 599 but was told he would have to wait an extra six months as that transmission was manufactured in the UK. He decided to get the F1 trans and not wait the extra time. Didn't like the F1 trans and quickly sold the 599. The buyer of his 575 liked the car and didn't want to sell it back by then...

 

Well, if you want to trade, my black 599 is a beauty. But you'll have to put the 3rd pedal in yourself!

 

Paul, a few guys I know down here are converting their 575,550's to manual, they have already done a 456, all the same parts.
People are looking for more driver input rather than FTD at the track in these cars. A trend the factory may want to listen to. Gordon Murray's new T50 car is all about the driver experience.

 

550 was always a manual. 575 is one you could convert from the F1 system using parts from the 575 gates car, but 5hose are getting hard to come by now.

The 456 auto you cannot convert by just changing a few parts. You would need a complete gear box, pedal box, clutch, flywheel, different torque tube, all hydraulic parts, different mounts etc..big undertaking on the 456.

The later stuff to own and restore would require quite the investment in special tools and scanners just to perform many basic repairs. The investment in tools plus parts cost plus whatever you paid for the car would put in the the "not worth it" catagory pretty quickly.

 

Big on a 456 but not so on a 575.

 

One of my least favourite tasks......the ducting, diverters and wiper transmission. Pretty tight quarters on the drivers side.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login


Early 365 rack mounts are cast iron with silent block bushings pressed in place. Brown silicone isolator goes between the frame and mount, stepped spacers get a black rubber washer on them to isolated the mount from the chassis. It's overkill I guess but cool and later on they went with the commonly used aluminum mounts with simple tapered cone bushings, the bean counters at work.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

NOS aeroquip a/c line visible
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Love the suspension. The 400 series cars had something very similar and were the last with the cool suspension and brakes like this. Heavy but cool looking.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

Im unsure why Ferrari went with Robbin egg blue paint on the splash shields but they did until 78 on boxers and I know 400i's used it as well.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Your work is just stunning.

 

Looks like art!!! Awesome work