456 hard gearshift - recommendations for gear oil? | FerrariChat

456 hard gearshift - recommendations for gear oil?

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Granada456, Jan 11, 2021.

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  1. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    I've noticed that my new 456 is difficult to get into gear, especially 1st and reverse, when it's warm after a journey. I'm noticing this when I get to my destination and find it difficult to park, for instance. Has anyone seen this in their car?

    I am thinking that I should try changing the gear oil first, before thinking about more complicated and expensive possibilities. Perhaps the oil is old, low, or the wrong grade, even. So does anyone have recommendations for the best gear oil for the 456? The manual specifies Agip Rotra LSX 75W90. Is that what I should get?
     
  2. fridolin_pt

    fridolin_pt Karting

    Mar 25, 2008
    162
    Germany NRW
    Full Name:
    Fritz
    Any idea how old the oil is. Gearshift getting hard when really warm is unusual.
     
  3. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    Yes, it's strange. I should say that the gearbox will not be really warm, as I'm only making 30km trips and it's winter here, but the shifting is only bad at the end of the trip, not at the start when the gearbox is stone cold. I have no idea what oil is in the gearbox or how old it is. That's why as a first step I'll change it.
     
  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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  5. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    I’m also curious about this. I changed mine and it came out very dark and sludge. So that might be all you’ve got. However I believe the shifting troubles these cars have is due to using heavy gear oil in the trans. I couldn’t help it, so I mixed one quart MTL into my gear oil change last time. It helped but still isn’t slick. I believe going to mtl would cure the problem and still be fine for the ring and pinion, but I’m of course nervous to try in my car lol.
     
  6. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    Thanks for the replies. That 360/430 thread has confused me. It begins by contrasting GL-4 with GL-4 and synchros with gears, but the factory oil says it is GL-4/GL-5. I'm leaning towards using the factory-specified oil for my oil change, at least as a first attempt. Does anyone have negative experiences with the Agip -now Eni- oil?
     
  7. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    18,874
    if you want to solve for your original post, the answer is MTL
     
  8. Davidspop

    Davidspop Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2019
    394
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    What about a 50/50 mix of MTL and Valvoline Synthpower 75W-90??
     
  9. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
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    My guess is it will only be a little bit better and I completely better… I don’t think you’re going to trick metal interview Haven a certain way
     
  10. Salami

    Salami Karting

    Oct 31, 2020
    219
    Oregon
    Metal interview?

    here’s another concept, using a 75-90 but not full synthetic. This could result in a fluid that shifts better and still provides correct shear protection for ring gear.
     
  11. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    Tricking metal into behaving a certain way
     
    Salami likes this.
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,054
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Rotra works well in 75W-90 if you can find it. I use Valvoline full synthetic 75W-90 in my 575M, but the F1 system masks a lot of problems 3 pedals show. 800-900 psi of hydraulic pressure just does not care.
     
    F456M and Davidspop like this.
  13. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,665
    Oslo
    Full Name:
    Erik
    How often do you change the transmission oil? Is there any way to check that the oil thermostat is working correctly? There is one in the transmission and not only for the engine.
     
  14. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    I've just ordered 5 litres of the original Eni (=Agip) rotra LSX 75W90. I'll see whether that fixes the issue. I'll let you know when I've done the job and tested it.
     
  15. Davidspop

    Davidspop Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2019
    394
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    Definitely let us know... I have a bit of "crunch" in the 2-3 shift randomly, and I am thinking a gearbox fluid change will help.
     
  16. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
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    unlikely 75w90 will do anything if you live in a cold climate.
     
  17. Davidspop

    Davidspop Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2019
    394
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    Fortunately I am in Florida.... although at 56 degrees today it is cold out there!
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    38,054
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Cold? 56 degrees is not cold. Should help the shifting, though.

    You should change your transaxle fluid every two years since it is a pump fed system.
     
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  19. Davidspop

    Davidspop Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2019
    394
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    Hey I grew up in Florida...I have blood the consistency of water!

    I just bought Sophia this summer, a 30K mile service was done in April 2020... that appears to have included replacing the gearbox fluid as they charged for 6 qts of 75w90... but can't hurt to try a different fluid...
     
  20. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
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    Mitchell Le
    Redline MTL has not failed me in 996, 997, GT3, 348, 328, 355, 360, 360CS, and I suspect it will be fine in your 456.
     
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  21. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    I now have 5 litres ready to go in this weekend. What's the best way to do the oil change? It looks to me as though the easiest will be to run a flexible tube from the top of the wheel arch through to the fill hole on the gearbox; is that the way you are doing it?
     
  22. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    Here's a short report on how I changed the gearbox oil in my new 456, in case it's of use to someone. I'll be reporting on what effect it has had on the quality of the gear shift tomorrow when I have driven the car.

    I put the rear of the car on a couple of axle stands, just high enough to be able to work underneath without introducing a large angle of tilt to the gearbox. I then took out the top plug first, in case it was impossible to remove it, in which case, if one has already removed the bottom plug and all the oil, one can't drive the car to get help. In my case it was tough to get both plugs out, as clearly some gorilla had tightened them, but I managed with some effort. The top one required a hexagonal key plus a spanner with just the right shape to fit into the limited space. The bottom one uses a smaller hexagonal key, but has much easier access.

    The old oil was dirty, but not terribly so, and was not very low. Of course I have no idea whether the old oil was of the correct type. It would have been better to do the job with the oil warm and less viscous, but I couldn't manage that, so I left it dripping for an hour. There were quite a lot of metal particles on the magnet on the bottom drain plug. Whether that indicates a larger problem with the gearbox should become apparent now that it has fresh oil in it. I cleaned up the magnetic plug, and I cleaned up the copper washers on both top and bottom plugs by rubbing them on a piece of flat sandpaper until they were uniformly shiny before reinserting the bottom plug and washer and torquing it up.

    I had thought I'd need a helper, but refilling the gearbox was not complicated to do on my own. I got about a metre and a half of garden hose, which is exactly the right diameter to fit into the upper fill hole, and I ran it horizontally through the suspension, up into the wheel arch and out. I pushed a plastic funnel into the end and fixed the lip of the funnel into the window channel on the door. I could then poor in oil at door level while making sure nothing dripped out underneath. It didn't, and it took all five litres of the Eni Rotra LSX 75W90. There is a little dipstick on the top fill plug to check the oil level. After torquing that back up and setting the car back down, I shall see tomorrow if there is any change in the shift.

    While I was under the rear I had a look around and found a couple of things to look at in the future. The rear spoiler is loose at one side. I probably need to take it off to see how to fix it; is it made of fibreglass? And there is a slight leak in a line to a fuel filter near to the rear suspension, that perhaps just needs tightening. But in general the underside is remarkably clean for a 1994 car, I was pleased to see.
     
  23. Davidspop

    Davidspop Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2019
    394
    Full Name:
    Lance Malcolm
    Sounds like it went well. Anxious to hear how it shifts with the fluid change!!
     
  24. Granada456

    Granada456 Karting

    Dec 8, 2020
    64
    Granada
    Full Name:
    Julyan
    So the disappointing news is that there is little or no difference to the hard shifting problem after the oil change and going to and from my work; a trip of 60 km in total. Sometimes the shifts are fine, but other times it's hard or impossible to get a given gear. Both first and reverse are on occasion very difficult to get, especially when I stop after a journey and then try to get them for parking. Third gear often grates both going up and down the gears. At the moment the only idea I have is that all this could indicate a general problem with the gearbox. It doesn't appear to fit other possibilities like a clutch problem, which I would think would show up all the time, or a shift adjustment problem, which again I would imagine would cause a given gear to be difficult to get all the time, not just intermittently, as far as I can see. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
     
  25. brogenville

    brogenville Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 24, 2012
    2,016
    UK
    Full Name:
    Robin
    Could also be an issue with the gear linkage alignment. You can test this by trying to shift with the gate removed.

    Other possibilities include wear on the damper block in the linkage, though I think this is unlikely.

    Beyond those, I would tend to think that your synchros have had it.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
    Fennicus likes this.

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