Ethanol damage to fuel tank and other parts

Sure, if you are mixing your own with pump gas and additives. If you are getting race fuels at the pump, I believe Sunoco is the only refiner making race fuel. I may be wrong. Sunoco’s own website says their race fuel may contain methanol or ethanol. Refiners blend various components to get the proper octane level and other specs. Depending on market conditions, ethanol can be a very cost effective means to get to desired octane versus other blend components such as toluene. Often there is a label on the pump stating if the fuel contains ethanol. Depends on state.

 

What is a really high quality legitimate octane booster additive? There are two stations near me (one is a Shell) just started selling non-ethanol gas but it is 87 octane. Two of my rarely driven cars have high compression engines with knock sensors. If I use 87 I will also likely lose +/- 10 hp or more if it pings. I want to start using THAT gas for obvious reasons but I need to boost that rating up to 90 something.

 

The Shell Fuel Doctor likened additives to spicing up your Granma's gumbo...

"It's already IN there!!
Don"t insult them by adding anything!! LOL!

I think as shown here it takes a very long time for the boundary layer to attack our tanks, one winter with a few starts should be fine.

 

Tetraethyl lead is the best. But your catalytic converter & O2 sensor may not like it.

 

Most racing fuel is sold via drums. VP Fuels, Gulf, Renegade, Torco, TOTAL (Elf), Shell, Rockett, etc. CP Chem along with many other refiners produces race fuel base stocks that are sold to blenders.

Racing fuel can be leaded or unleaded. Oxygenated (alcohols) or not. VP Fuels has dozens of blends. https://vpracingfuels.com/master-fuel-tables/

 

There is an easy way to determine if you have ethanol in your gasoline. Using a graduated glass cylinder put in a measured amount of water, like 2 ounces, then add the gasoline. If the separation line remains at the 2 oz mark then you have no ethanol. If the line drops then you do. I suppose it's even possible to calculate what percentage of ethanol is present using this method.

 

For what it's worth – unfortunately, that separation test doesn't always work. I've had a jar sit on the bench for a week, and it never separated to the degree to see a split.

 

"So it seems like the moral of the story is that if the car is driven regularly the ethanol issue is really a non-issue. For cars that will sit for a while Stabil or VP additives seem reasonable to use.

Fair assessment?"

In my experience over many years of storing various vehicles for 5-7 months per annum, and never using any fuel other than the typical, up to 10% ethanol pump gasoline (and never having the slightest issue), your statement is absolutely correct!

 

I have a jar with a hole in the cap to let air in and out sitting in my garage for 7 years now. The only thing that has happened is about 1" of gas has evaporated. According to this research paper, phase separation from absorption of water from humid air is pretty much not going to happen ( excerpt below). Phase separation is pretty much due to liquid water being mixed with gas. Such can happen from condensation on fuel tank walls of nearly empty tanks. But I've never experienced in in any of my cars or power equipment, which sit with partly filled tanks 6 months or more.

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I've been a pilot for 50 years and one of the pre-flight rituals (at least the first flight of the day) is to sump the tanks and look for water.
I've never seen any.
Still, I keep looking, every day...

 

Respectfully, I think we are conflating and perhaps confusing at least four different issues, at least for those of us, like myself, who are not petrochemical engineers.

The original question was whether or not ethanol is bad for our cars. Although I have never experienced problems, which can be traced to ethanol, with my assortment of vintage British, Italian and German cars, some people believe that ethanol, which is alcohol, attacks non-metallic components like hoses and carburetor and pump diaphragms and leads to their premature demise.

We used to put products like Drygas (which is alcohol) in gasoline so that the water (which mainly came through condensation in the fuel tank) did NOT separate out from the gasoline, but would be burned along with it. Rather than exacerbating that problem, ethanol, just like Drygas, ameliorates it by absorbing the water which can then be burned, as opposed to having it sitting separately in your gas tank where it could actually freeze if your car is in cold weather. So water separation is not an ethanol problem, quite the opposite.

Back in the "good old days," gasoline did not have ethanol but it did have tetraethyl lead. Tetraethyl lead is a cheap and effective octane booster which is why gasolines back in the day had higher octane ratings. Unfortunately, tetraethyl lead is not good for the environment and has been outlawed. Unless your 308/328 is modified, it will run fine on 91 octane gas. High-octanes are for higher compression engines to avoid pre-detonation, otherwise known as "ping. Higher octane gasolines do not make your car run better, unless it is experiencing pre-detonation with lower octanes or is a modern high-performance car which automatically adjusts for different octane levels.

It is correct that an octane rating higher than a car needs to operate as intended without pre-ignition does not make the car run better or with more power. However, there are some "experts" who say that current higher octane gasolines (93 as opposed to 89) are generally better quality and last longer in storage. I do not know if that is true or not.

Some "experts" say that gasoline was just of a higher quality back in the 1960s and 1970s and, besides being higher octane, would last longer in storage. All gasolines degrade over time. Is it okay to leave it in your gas tank for three months, six months, a year, more? Rather than struggle with that question, many people put gasoline stabilizers like Sta-bil in their gasoline in an attempt to assure that it will last as long as possible, especially in cars stored for significant periods of time. I use it in my cars over the winter. It does make sense to fill your tank over winter because it both leaves less room for condensation and, secondly, larger quantities of gasoline tend to degrade more slowly.

I hope this "experienced" layman's point of view is helpful. Perhaps some professional petrochemical engineers can chime in.

 

It's pretty simple. If you have never seen water in your gas tank when using non ethanol gas, then you will never see water in your tank or phase separation when using E10 under the same conditions.

And I can personally vouch that 35 year old fuel hoses exposed to E10 for at least 14 years have not internally deteriorated to any significant extend or developed any kind of leaks. The only place I have seen a significant problem with E10 is in marine applications with fiberglass tanks where more extreme temperature variation and high humidity leads to excessive condensation in the tanks causing separation a which case the separated water/alcohol mixture attacks the fiberglass. Not saying it doesn't happen to AL tanks as I have seen reports of it, but it more an issue of excess water getting in the tanks to start with which causes separation due to condensation. Mostly likely to happen with partially filled tanks in areas where humidity is high and sugnificant day to nigh temperature variations.

 

I concur with John.
While I don't want to say it is impossible, as I said in a post a few days ago, I have never seen clear evidence of ethanol attacking healthy components. I would even guess that the natural deterioration of aged components is sometimes unfairly attributed to ethanol. High humidity and extreme conditions can certainly influence condensation. For that and other reasons, dehumidifiers are nice to have in your garage.

 

I think one should also be cautious in blaming ethanol for a situation, which might merely be actually due to a rubber component being 35+ years old. Rubber hoses, seals, and components have a lifespan, no matter what sort of fluid they have contact with.

 

One fuel that is guaranteed not to have any type of alcohol. AVgas.

 

Thanks for the education guys. Never knew about potential groundwater issue.


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Yea but it has a ton of lead even though it's called "low lead" that's just in comparison to the old 130 octane that had even more. Definitely don't use it if you have cats or an o2 sensor.

 

In addition, I don’t believe Avgas contains DCA (deposit control additive) which is a beneficial additive.

 

Is yours injected or a Carb 308?


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Whilst its true that all materials degrade over a given time its not true in the case of rubber compounds in contact with Ethanol. Old cotton braided fuel lines used on classic cars are mostly low grade rubber compounds are not suitable for E fuels.

 

I've bought only ethanol-free fuel for both Ferraris and both Cadillacs for the four years since I discovered its availability. The relatively few dollars more in annual fuel costs is a small price to pay for the peace-of-mind it has given.

 

'85 QV.

Never had a problem with E10 in any vehicle or power equipment I own. Never use fuel additive. Didn't use my snow blower for 2 1/2 yrs and not problem with it starting even with old gas. I think it's like a someone else said above, old cars, old parts and hoses = problems. Of course, I don't have any of the problems with my car that others seem to. For 35 years it's been completely reliable. I don't fix what ain't broke.

 

My €0.02.

The Chemists are CORRECT.

The articles are CORRECT.

LARGE AMOUNTS, hell even tiny amounts, of alcohol in gas will DESTROY SOMETHING. PERIOD.

Buuuuùuut, how LONG will it take? A day? A week? A month? A year? MANY YEARS?

The Chemists are correct, the DAMAGE begins immediately ... at the Atomic level.

But for us to realize any noticeable or significant damage or change can take MANY YEARS, in some cases Lifetimes. But the damage/change does in-fact begin immediately and relentlessly 'marches-on.'


Kinda reminds me of the HUGE and sometimes nasty debate over the 'GOLD Connector Kit' for engine management, developed and sold by a long time Member and world-renowned Exotic Tech here, with an EE Degree.

The uproar was mixing Gold and Tin plated contacts and tin-plated copper wire. 'OH, the Chemists (and books) say that should NEVER BE DONE. The reaction between the Gold and Tin will severely Degrade the electrical connection over time,' Yada, Yada.

ALL 100% TRUE.

Annnnnd, the NO S***, On-the-Ground REALITY IS, ....

There have been members here who bought and installed the Gold Connector Kit about 10 years ago, drive the crap outta their cars, and have yet to sing any Woes whatsoever, of electrical problems Chemistry says WILL HAPPEN. No CELS due to faulty connections .... in 10 years. In a number of cars.

Hmmmmmmmm?


So, ARE the Chemists Correct?

'Yep.'

Is the REALITY Somewhat to very much Different, concerning our lifetime ownership experience?

'Yep,' again.

Often times.


So take a lot of this stuff with a grain+ of salt.

Read other car make forums where the population of cars is much higher. Gives one a much more broad idea of what is REALLY HAPPENING On-The-Ground 'Out There.'


For example, a while back, the 'Air-Cooled' guys were having real issues with fuel lines from a noted manufacturer supplying many makes of cars, their new fuel hoses were turning into leaky, wet noodles in a matter of days/weeks. Literally. Techs were INSTALLING Fire Hazzards, NOT Removing them.

How that all turned out, I'll let the reader find and read the forum. 'Air-Cooled' is your 'Search Engine, Hint. The forum was located in the UK IIRC.


Transitioning to my last Data Point,


About 5+ years ago, maybe longer, the heads of MB, BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, Opel, were called to testify before the German Parliament. Germany, being one of the 'Kings of GREEN,' had recently mandated the making and selling of E15 since E10 was just so good.

The UPROAR from certain segments was IMMEDIATE and Very LOUD.

The question put to each car maker was simple. A 'YES' or a 'NO,' was a complete answer to the question.

Each was asked if they would recommend their customers put E15 in their cars, old or brand new.


Each car maker answered the same. Not ONE dissenter in the crowd.

Wanna Guess what the answer was?


Less than 24 hours after that news clip was broadcast, it was COMPLETELY SCRUBBED from the Internet. You will find that 3 or 4 minute video clip NOWHERE.


Yep, E15 exists here.

Gas Stations changed all but one or two pumps to E15 almost overnight. Within a few weeks all the pumps were changed back, because Lines would form to buy the E5/E10 from the ONE or TWO PUMPs still dispensing the 'Good Stuff.'

Today, almost NOBODY BUYS the E15.


The Message: 'Alcohol belongs in a bottle, not in a gas tank.'

[Unless you are on the Drag Strip. ]

 

In the case of cheap fuel hoses made from EPDM in most cases the effects can be days.

Try putting a EDPM washer in a small jar of Ethanol based fuel and go back to it 5 days later. It hard as a rock and brittle. Then try a washer made for FKR or NBR or viton. It still has its same elasticity.

useful info here
https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels