360 There are many build threads. This one is mine. Tubi Style, Novitec KW, and Mase, oh my

Rather than continue to clutter up the "today..." thread I thought i'd start my own as i've got a bunch of new content to share.

And since I'm going to do that, I figure i might as well go back and start at the beginning.

There are many build great threads, better than mine (Randy and RBM are absolutely amazing, but also -CD- and Scottslaw and Ferrari360FW for starters).

But I think do have a couple interesting things to share and a couple important people to thank, so I thought this might be a good idea.

I thought i'd chronicle my entire journey with the car so far and then outline some key lessons learned and unveil it's final form -- which should be complete sometime around turkey day.

Starting picture tax: current state as she sits today:

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Next up: Day zero. Decision to purchase, initial mistakes made, initial lessons learned - and first massive refresh project

 

A short word of relevant background - I'm a lifelong auto enthusiast - a lot of very interesting cars in my life, mostly in the BMW and Audi world, and have seen the Ferrari 360 as one of the absolutely pinnacle most beautiful cars of all time since I first read about it.

My closest friend was able to make the leap into Ferrari ownership last year, and has been pushing me and pushing me to join him.

I had been researching the hell out of the purchase process, including reading many times over the absolutely excellent purchasing guide in the FAQ and the resources in the technical thread. And every article on Aldous Voice's excellent site, but especially his buying guide.

I'd been lurking the forum here quite literally for a couple years, watching some cars come up for sale and thinking of making a move. In January I made the decision to go forward in earnest, built up a short list of prospects and began interrogating their history. I was sold on an F1 (if I was going to stretch for the 6MT I felt I'd have to just go ahead into the F430, even though i believe the 360 to be a more pure car I recognize the 430 is arguably better in almost every way than the price).

I set up several automated searches on most of the car buying sites. I was looking for an F1 in TDF, Silver, Grey, or Red, in that order. I had a strong preference to shields, a fan of bold interiors, and wasn't scared of modifications (especially exhaust and challenge grill, which would be immediately in order on a stock car). More importantly, i was mostly fixated on price, and much less on mileage.

I was of the strong opinion that the 360 market had bottomed, or was close enough to the bottom to count, anyways. I also found that there were a lot of sellers that were widely out of touch with current market conditions at the time. You'd regularly see driver quality cars with deferred maintenance selling for 60's and even 50's but then see the same condition cars with no better records being listed by dealers in the 80's, and some even more, so it was going to be a little bit of a hustle to work through the market and find the right value.

After this process, i had landed on two top contenders:
- a TDF in Florida sitting at a Mitsubishi dealership. a 2000 with 24,500 on the clock asking $68k but showing some early flexibility in price. Had some decent service records and a couple upgrades but showed multiple issues from the last service 7-months prior including weeping rollover valves that were not addressed
- a "bare bones" TDF in California a 2000 with 15,400 on the clock asking $75k. This car had barely been driven in it's recent life and was optioned with virtually nothing from the factory - no shields, basic seats, completely stock.

One of the things I considered key to my results - I had a bit of pre-existing relationship with someone who is widely considered one of the top master Ferrari mechanics in the US. Vince at Black Horse Motorwerks was kind enough to spend several sessions with me on the phone and by email consulting on the 360 platform, what to purchase, what to worry about, etc. He was also willing to interpret several car's history and records for me remotely, e.g. reviewing the listing and documentation I was able to assemble on each car and making recommendations.

Some of the advice that I got from Vince that didn't always match to conventional internet wisdom:
(disclaimer - i'm far from an expert, just an obsessive researcher. Any errors are likely misunderstandings on my side vs. something wrong Vince said).

- A PPI is a great thing but is really more to validate that what the seller is telling you about the car is accurate, versus trying to find a car with no issues. Vince's take was virtually every 360 of this age that's not been already restored or aggressively maintained is going to need some significant work - e.g. unless the common failure points have been for sure addressed (documented variators, ball joints, clutch, suspension, rollover valves, etc), that you're almost better in most cases buying a car that had a great life and was extremely well maintained early but is due for a major, as you're going to need to get in there anyways and you might as well do so much at once. Basically, his summary was either you are going to have to spend for a really really well maintained car (e.g. where the owner can show you several significant bits of documented work in the last year, and you can then validate that with a PPI) or you are going to find something that's going to need moderate to significant work -- and there's unlikely to be anything magically in between.

In other words, as Aldous puts it on his site: "There are a lot of cars out there that have not been serviced annually" -- and in my opinion those cars should be aggressively avoided, unless direct and thorough evidence can show otherwise.

- the obsession with low miles generally does more harm than good, and unless you're looking for a concourse car you're much better finding something that's been driven a lot than something that's sat. This principle (and some much deeper dives into what it mean) is what ruled out the "bare bones" TDF from my list -- Vince's take from the documentation on the car and the lack of miles that it was actually much riskier than the car with 25k on the clock, for example, and definitely not worth the premium especially when considering the other had modifications that I actually wanted and would have to pay for on the lower miles car.

I thought i understood him, and understood what it meant to buy a high maintenance car (i own an extremely modified 2003 Audi RS6 that's in almost all ways other than part prices higher maintenance than the 360). But i truly didn't understand until getting into it and seeing how the tolerances and capabilities of this car, the exceptional Ferrari tax on parts, and just what it meant to truly refresh a car of this caliber.

But most especially, it was coming to understand putting these two points together -- that a PPI can only really find problems that exist today, and can't find that the parts that are at risk because they haven't been driven enough (e.g. gaskets that are drying out inside a compressor) and are really only going to show themselves after you take that car that's been driven only hundreds of miles in the last year and put a thousand on it.

- finally, a conclusion of my own, hard earned mostly on the Audi world but also found it translated well to Ferrari -- a car maintained by someone that could do their own work can be a much bigger red flag than you would think. I used to think that if I was buying a car from a shade tree mechanic that it was going to be a lot more likely that the car was better maintained -- e.g. you'd demonstrated that you could do your own major service, you'd surely do other little things that needed doing, or otherwise the car would likely be better maintained than someone who just had the minimum factory paperwork or no history at all.

I would say pretty conclusively my experience is the opposite. LIkewise, with buyers that advertise that a car is "exceptionally well maintained" or "needs nothing" without being able to conclusively prove those statements are a red flag. Less so for the seller of my 360 (who was a one-time Fchatter and might still be reading this, and whom I believe had nothing but the best intentions in selling the car and attempting to describe it reasonably, and was very clear that it needed a major and ball joints and...), but especially for one of the sellers of a rare Audi i purchased a few years back -- i would say it as i've found that, more often than not, most amateurs doing their own maintenance are likely to cut corners significantly more so than a professional, and oftentimes are going to massively overestimate their abilities and/or maintenance levels.

Obviously there are complete exceptions -- people like @RANDY6005 i'm pretty sure could run circles around most everyone getting paid to spin a wrench at dealerships. But in general, i would say that I will never again buy a car with significant "self service" records, or at least I will significantly discount the value as a result.

Anyways - after ruling out the "bare bones" car due to lack of maintenance and mileage and value, i was really close to an agreed offer on the other TDF 360 when a buyer walked onto the lot and scooped it from me at their asking price. I'll probably always wonder if that car was the deal i thought it was, because I am a big fan of TDF.

It was around this time I contacted Mike (@Yellow Compass) based on the information in this fantastic buying service review thread. Mike was fantastic and I wouldn't hesitate to engage him again to buy or sell a car, although he was unable to find a match for my exact specifications before I was able to locate one through a WTB thread here on Fchat.

Here's where i love this storybook journey.

Back in 2018, a Silver 360 with black 430 wheels and a few tasteful modifications (challenge grill, carbon fiber air boxes, Tubi Style exhaust) came across Fchat for sale. Most notably, after not selling in the mid-60's, it was dropped for to $55k for a very quick sale, which in 2018 was definitely very aggressive.

I was on Fchat at the time, and saw this exact car come up for sale, and absolutely agonized over the decision. I knew this was a great price. The timing wasn't bad, it was in reasonable distance to me in the midwest. I literally have email logs of discussing this car with my aforementioned friend and discussing if I should do it. I ultimately didn't... until the car popped back into my inbox, almost exactly two years after i was considering it as my first Ferrari.

Long story somewhat shorter, at the height of the initial wave of COVID-19 in March, the current owner of the car (not the person who bought it from @Indy360silver, but the person who bought it from them...) reached out and met the terms of my ad. I was floored to find that it was this exact vehicle i'd come so close to buying two years prior. Now it had 32k on the clock, was running moderately long on the clutch but wasn't slipping, and was due for a major. But the price was right, the modifications were what i wanted, there were some nice spares included... it was fate, a second chance at a great car at a fair price, and one that especially met the criteria i was going for: was reasonably well documented throughout most of it's early life, had been a bit neglected later in life, but looked to be an excellent driver class car at the right price.

After a tough but fair negotiation, I signed a purchase agreement to buy the car sight unseen with some contractual caveats. Given everything going with COVID lockdowns at the time, and the uncertainty, it was virtually impossible for me to get a PPI on the car especially where it was located in the east coast. So instead, we came to an agreement -- the car was pretty extensively documented remotely in video and via facetime, and i would have a few business days to do a PPI once I received the car and could send it back and only pay return shipping (we split it on the way out).

Buying the car, i knew it was due for major service. We knew there were miles on the clutch but did not expect it needed immediate replacement (and in fact the purchase order specified that as a specific condition of purchase, if the clutch reading said it had to go, that was immediate grounds for return). As an early 1999, unfortunately we were also unable to find evidence the variators had been changed, so we very much assumed that would be part of it.

I couldn't wait to find out if it was everything I'd been dreaming of, or a nightmare in waiting. Thanks to COVID it wasn't easy to get here, but it ultimately did:

This is what the car looked like before i bought it:

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as loaded for transport, including included spares in the frunk and in the passenger floorboard:

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And as delivered: my first official Ferrari smile -- you'll have to trust me it's hiding behind the pixels.

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up next: the post-delivery PPI results, the go/no-go decision, and the first major major...

 

post-delivery PPI results, the go/no-go decision, and the first major major.

My 360 arrived exactly as it was described.

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(delivery driver checking boxes with me on the transport sheet the moment it arrived)

I knew i was buying a driver quality car and i was expecting it to be in need of some pretty reasonable love. I knew it needed a full major and probably the variators. I knew it had some minor cosmetic flaws, including a crack in the rear bumper and some minor interior issues like the headliner and sticky buttons.

Because of the complications of buying during the early days of COVID-19, we couldn't do a normal PPI before delivery, so we were doing a post-delivery PPI with the option to send the car back, no questions asked.

We did not have a reading on the clutch but it was expected to be not exhibiting any issues.

First thing first we got a clutch reading -- it was 57% worn, so not terrible - but not great either.
Black Horse's official opinion was 80% was max clutch life, so we were just over 70% through the clutch based on a 0-80 scale and not 0-100.

I didn't even drive it -- we knew it was overdue for belts and I didn't want to risk driving it without resolving that. It went straight into the service bay and wouldn't

Black Horse completed the PPI and gave me a call -- nothing that we weren't expecting that didn't warrant moving ahead with the purchase. Of course, we wouldn't know exactly everything we'd find along the way, as a standard PPI is really more to document that the car is in the condition it's advertised vs. finding every single flaw that you're only going to find when you start truly taking things apart.

So what did we find, buying a remote driver-quality car with 30k on the clock, excellent early maintenance records but a lapsed service history?

Front lower ball joints were completely shot, upgraded with Hill Engineering.

As expected, the major service was performed. belts, plugs, filters, gaskets, Hill tensioner bearings.

Water pump needs replacement at the same time, ok, not unexpected and good general precaution regardless given the price.

First (and probably the only) really good bit of news in the process -- GREEN PAINT on the variators!

There was no evidence of the variators being serviced in any of the records, unfortunately no electronic dealer records (i called the two dealers that it had been serviced at in its early life, neither had any records from that time period, i also called a friendly at FoH who verified nothing that could be garnered electronically), no stamps on the heads -- definitely went in expecting the variators to need replacing, to budget for it, and to know the risks that replacing them could break the cams and require a really expensive replacement. But now, we had our first surprise - and really the only positive surprise -- we had to assume that the variators had been replaced.

It would have been such a serious fraud for someone to break the engine down to this point and paint the variators using the correct paint in the correct spot, but not replace them - so we called it good, stamped the heads and buttoned it back up.

Given the variators reportedly have a 100km (62k miles) lifespan the assumption is we'll replace the variators proactively when we make it to the 60k service

Given the overall costs I was going to sink and everything we found at the time, after a detailed discussion of cost/benefit, we made the decision to go ahead and replace the clutch while we were in there. Lower labor cost and just the peace of mind knowing that the other major issue would be rectified.

I'm really glad we did, as despite being 57% worn we found some pretty significant visual wear on the clutch:

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New clutch and slave bearing, f1 lines, fluid.

First major finding of a problem: alternator was shot and needed replacement. Also the alternator harness was shot - burned, cut, trashed. Not a cheap replacement but we were able to source new old stock, quite a bit better than list price (and even cheaper than the usual recycling places wanted for a used one).

installed new stainless brake lines and fluid -- and a new brake master - found the fluid was extremely bad and took more than two full flushes to clear out all the bad fluid and gunk in the calipers.

window regulators worn on both sides, to the point that neither side window would seal enough to be water tight. Paid to have them adjusted. Definitely an early mistake - should have replaced them at this time, but i hadn't yet become an expert at sourcing my own parts (spoiler alert: you can't just take the first price you find online, you've got to search and search and search all the possible sources, as the price point for a given item can literally swing 50% or more site to site. depending on the part, eBay and the various recycling sites have been helpful -- although in my limited experience the recycling sites have been extremely expensive, especially given the price for recycling parts from wrecked or burned cars that can be compromised) and I hit sticker shock with another $2k for parts when i was already running up budget concerns with this first service, so I just had Black Horse adjust them as much as possible and we got "good enough" on the seals for now.

New CV boots all around.

We acid etched the the trans case and refined the corroded axle flanges which made a huge difference in engine bay appearance.

Long story slightly shorter, first major service was about 25% of the car's market value and >40% of what i paid for the vehicle. And i hadn't even driven it yet. But after several weeks, I had that call that said "she's all buttoned up and ready to come home" and i could come take my first drive in my freshly refreshed new-to-me 360. With a new clutch and the 30k major major out of the way, she should be good to roll for a long time with only basic maintenance needs.... right?

In general, I found a couple key lessons just in the early service:

1) a cheap driver class 360 that hasn't been well maintained and is due for a major + clutch is going to run you easy $15k, probably more like $20k to $25k and maybe even more out of the gate depending on what else you find as you're getting in there.

2) A PPI cannot save you from the things that look fine but will fail on use or fail when you dig into them - at least not the level of PPI most people are going to do on a car in the $60k +/- $10k price range. And honestly rather than pay for a super in depth PPI it seems like it's better to just look for the main known issues and buy on records and put the balance towards your inevitable refresh costs anyways.

3) price of parts varies greatly and finding a shop that will let you bring your own parts can significantly save you - although maybe not as much as you think, because:

4) it doesn't make economic sense to try to save money or shortcut in not doing something right the first time. I run into several other lessons later that drive this home further, but it starts here with the cost to service the window regulators without replacing them. Even paying full retail for the parts probably would have made sense in retrospect, but especially so when i can find them for almost half of retail from one specific vendor.

Pictures from the initial major:

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(note how easy it would have been to do headers at this point... definite missed opportunity)

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And most importantly, as it was brought home, 37 days into my ownership but day one of actually possessing it:

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by far my favorites - my helpers first inspecting:

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and rendering judgement - her first Ferrari smile but definitely not to be her last.

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up next: first real drive, first check engine light, and the first thing breaks...

 

The car came with the pictured K&N, we swapped for the factory paper filters but i still have the K&N somewhere. what do you recommend?

 

Mase Engineering tune - zero issues, +21HP, optimized for the exact setup.
https://maseflash.com/collections/ferrari/products/ferrari-360-ecu-flash

search "mase engineering" and you'll find a lot of praise for them here. definitely strongly recommended.

more on them in a few more update posts

 

first real drive, first check engine light, and the first thing breaks...
(update through the end of May)

37 days into my ownership but day one of actually possessing it, i was finally able to drive my 360 home on 4/21 (and post my original "first day home" pic).

I wasn't able to take it out again until two days later. When i did, i ran into two problems almost immediately.

I took my daughter out, everything ran great but pulling off the road to fill up, I noticed a check engine light. It's possible it had been on a while - shame on me, new car, first ferrari, and I wasn't as hyper focused on the cluster as I probably could have been, and the angle i had the steering wheel was slightly obscuring the CEL.

Cut the drive short and return home - daughter can't open the door, passenger interior door handle inoperable. Maybe was broken previously (all the times I'd opened the passenger door to put stuff in / out, I hadn't ever opened it from the inside) but I like to think it let go right then. Common failure point, as I understand it.

I also noted, new to me, that the oil pressure gauge would literally bounce around all over the place as I was driving. at neutral it would sit about 25%, under throttle it would jump to 50%, it would fluctuate greatly. Vince let me know that this was relatively standard, that it wasn't specifically a problem, but could be addressed by replacing the oil pressure sender upon next oil change. This is another of those "if I'd known" moments -- given that i'd spent 50% of the purchase price of the car on the first major service and associated refresh, this was definitely a missed opportunity.

Black Horse was able to get me right back in, was able to quickly determine that the CEL was from a cracked vacuum line and was able to replace it quickly (and did so gratis). The passenger side handle not working was likewise a quick repair with a used spare they had on hand, and I was back on the road the next day and good to go.

i spent the next several weeks getting to know the car, thoroughly enjoying it, and cataloging my next actions.

I had the car professionally detailed, paint corrected, and ceramic coated at KC Elite Car Care where they also professionally photograph your vehicle, producing some fantastic glamor shots -- here's a small set of my absolute favorites:

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A couple things I missed previously, in chronological order, that i forgot about until i went digging:

• Before I did the first major i went ahead and ordered a set of the uprated cabin air filters from a forum member and had them installed with the major. Strongly recommended.
  
  
• Almost a full month before I'd even taken the car home, I had posted a want to buy for new wheels as well as listed the black F430 wheels / tires for sale. I'm a lifelong BBS fan and have had the BBS Challenge (CH) wheels on four cars before the Ferrari, including my two current stablemates (a D2 S8 and C5 RS6, the latter which has both summer and winter sets of CH). I knew i wanted to acquire a set of Challenge wheels for the car for my primary wheels.
  
  I was fortunately able to find a set of authentic BBS Challenge wheels, complete with a bit of race patina.
  
  Unfortunately, because of the first major repair bill massively exceeding my expectations, I wasn't able to purchase them right away. But it was ultimately meant to be, as the seller was ultimately extremely courteous and still had them several weeks later, and in the end of May i was able to complete the transaction
  
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  Luckily i have a couple great wheel refinishers here in town, and was able to get the entire set refinished for a reasonable price. They'd lose the stickers and the original BBS satin finish, but I was happy with a standard alloy silver for the price (and especially with my Argentino color)
  
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  (more pics in the "Pic... Today..." thread). Again, COVID delays and a problem at the refinisher meant i didn't get these home until early June.

So, a running log - as the next major milestone, before getting the Challenges home from refinishing, by the end of May, i accomplished the following:

• Sent off my spare TCU to Eric for the CS TCU tune. Thanks to Covid shipping delays (on my side, not his, it got stuck in Chicago at the height of COVID) I wouldn't get it back until June and wouldn't get it installed until July (since it requires a PIS adjustment).
  
  
• Hardwired the radar detector (Uniden R7) and dash cam
  
  
• Ordered a replacement key fob since i only had two. Found out (great surprise) that even though I had one red and one black fob, neither was actually a master -- i had two of the subordinate remotes and no master remote. So started out thinking i was buying a spare black -- ended up buying a new master and then having two spares. Luckily Gobble was able to help me out and I was able to post some details on how to reprogram that might help you out if you ever have to go there.
  
  
• the headliner was rapidly progressing from sagging to falling down completely and was removed (and hours spent cleaning up resulting foam debris)
  
  
• Refinished all of my sticky buttons myself -- really straightforward, used the isopropyl alcohol approach (actually was hard to find the alcohol with COVID shortages, but had a bottle on hand). Removed each sticky part from the car, rubbed with alcohol and a white cloth until clean, re-installed.
  
  Everything went swimmingly other than figuring out that my "stop" button was broken in the back and just stuck in place, and one of my AC control knobs was badly busted - these are known to frequently crack, and one of mine was cracked completely in two once I pulled it out.
  
  Other than that, zero issues refinishing by hand, all factory lettering stuck around (other than arrows on the factory vents) and everything looks great (as the entire car was sticky and all the buttons are very much the same color).
  
  
• Instead of buying a single replacement knob from the recyclers for outrageous prices, or from the various button refinishers for what i felt was also outrageous prices (no offense, but the ferrari tax for a single poorly designed button or knob seems ludicrous to me), I sourced an entire replacement F430 unit with the more modern silver control knobs from Europe for only slightly more than the price of buying a couple replacement knobs. There were options for both F and C, with C saving a couple hundred -- I could care less as i'm rarely ever using the knob other than "I want it colder/hotter than it is" so I was glad to save and gladly took the Celsius option.
  
  
• Also picked up the Maserati part for the front lamp / plate (the cabin light) at 1/10th the cost of the Ferrari part to address problems with mine. Part numbers in this thread. Although this wouldn't get used until December...
  
  
• Sourced and installed F430 air vents and replaced to modernize the car. My install tips are in this thread.
  
  Here's the look at the vents + AC controls - completely changes the car in my opinion
  
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• I purchased cheap performance tires -- Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's -- for my BBS Challenge wheels. Again, trying to cut corners. Some detail here. More on this mistake next time out...

up next: Moving into June: My dream wheels come home, leading to the first time truly left stranded...