Headlights on French delivery series 2 400i | FerrariChat

Headlights on French delivery series 2 400i

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by bjwhite, May 29, 2020.

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  1. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Brian White
    Any of our European brothers know exactly which headlights were used on French market series 2 400is?
    I've seen pictures of headlights where the outer glass is yellow--then I've seen pictures of clear glass but with the internal yellow bulb cover.

    I suspect they came with yellow outer glass Cibie HCRs? Bonus points for posting pictures of the lights in your car.
     
  2. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Yellow outer glass. I do not think we had yellow h1 bulb back then. Most imported cars had the headlight hand painted. These cibie were yellow from the factory.

    That's a gen1 but yellow headlights have been mandatory till 1/1/1993.
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  3. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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  4. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Sorry for the typo these are made by Hella not Cibié. The fog-lights do also have a yellow outer glass.These later lights were made by Ducelier on the French Gen1, not sure if these foglights were specific to France, but the bolt pattern on the spoiler is specific (one big hole on my car, 2 smaller ones on the spoiler I've received).

    As soon as white headlights have been allowed, most cars were retrofitted with clear headlights.
     
  5. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    #5 bjwhite, May 29, 2020
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
    Thanks Raemin. My French market series 2 has yellow lens Cibies for the fogs which are original. But when the car was brought into the USA the yellow headlights were sadly removed.

    I've been considering getting original replacements, hence my question.

    I'm actually surprised to see Hella which makes me think maybe these were dealer installed once the cars were imported to France instead of Ferrari factory installed?

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  6. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    We recently had a discussion on that mater : Cibie, Carello, Hella where quite common. Not sure all these were also available in yellow. Unlike many headlight of that era, these headlights cannot be easily opened, so the headlight had to be yellow from the factory.

    Back then there was only one importer in France: Charles Pozzi in Levallois Perret (a "chic" Paris suburb close to "arc de triomphe"). Maybe you could drop them an e-mail. From time to time they provide information about the cars they sold.
     
  7. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Thanks Raemin. My car was originally sold by Pozzi. I've long wanted to contact them to get any information they had on the car, but I don't speak French and didn't know if they would still have records, be annoyed for me asking, or what.. haha...
    Maybe I'll reach out to them someday. My car came to the US in 1985 so it was a year or so old when it left France.
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    Mine (series 1 though) is a Pozzi car, came from Paris to here and the lights are yellow Carellos
     
  9. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
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    Yeah looking at other series 1 cars, I see Carello JOD headlights and Carello fogs.

    I'm thinking the series 2 cars got Cibies.
     
  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Injected boxers switched to Cibie fog lights from carellos in 82

    Parts illustration for the 412 shows carello headlights. Not gospel though.
     
  11. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Hella Cibie, ... : there used to be some heated arguments on which were better. Maybe that nowadays the focus would be different: on other cars I've managed to cut the glue and pry open the headlight, but these Hella do rely on a stiff and hard glue that would make repair almost an impossible task. Same story for the Ducelier foglights: just cleaning these has proven troublesome.

    Maybe the Cibie are easier to open, yellow conversion would then be a no-brainer: a bit of hobby stained glass paint and you are done. If you do not like the end-result, soak the glass in break fluid for one night and do try it again.

    Bear in mind that yellow lights are dimmer: these are really nice for fog-lights, but on the low-high beams you will loose quite a bit of distance. If you look at my own headlights, you can notice that the Fresnel pattern is far less obstructive than on erwin's clear headlights (https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/pop-up-light-glass-lenses.496979/#post-144150183). Obstructive pattern combined with yellow tint could be a bad combination.

    As these lights are less of a nuisance for other drivers I adjust the beam slightly higher.
     
  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Its funny you say this. Driving my boxer and 400 at night the yellow lights illuminate much better on the wooded country roads I live around. Maybe the distance is different vs the white and they light up a wider area? Not sure but I remember the first time I drove the 400 at night I was impressed with how well they worked compared to the clear lights on our other vehicles.
     
  13. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    The illumination does cover a shorter distance, but there is also less glare and multipath reflective light (not sure this is the proper way of describing it). So less output, but you are not blinded by objects close to you and can see better what's behind these objects. So if you drive in a "crowded" forest you will indeed like it better, but if you are cruising on an highway (without object on the immediate vicinity) the clear headlights are better.

    14.4v voltage regulators would allow to recover the lost output without installing silly 100w bulbs.
     
  14. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    Oh that's a good thread Raemin, thanks for refreshing my memory. Good pics too. Hmmm.....still a bit of a mystery isn't it? I bet late 400is had four Cibies is my thought. So I'll get new clear or yellows at some point. I have clears on there now, but a couple of the reflectors are showing their age. BUT first, the exhaust project. :)
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

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    As a side note, Charles Pozzi's real name was Carlos Alberto Pozzi. He was a successful racer in the 50's and originally only sold race-cars. This racing background lasted over a long period. He managed to bring quite a few Ferraris at competitive levels. A few extreme upgrades come to mind such as the "blue whale" BB as well as the F40 LeMans project he promoted with Michelotto.

    My brother managed to collect information from Pozzi regarding my own car. They had not forgotten the buyer which they called a "hooligan"... The disagreement must have been large as the car never came back to Pozzi and was exclusively maintained by Aurelia.
     
  16. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
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    Aww raemin, that’s good stuff!!
    My series 2 came with Cibie fogs but had clear headlights.
    I’ve always wondered why the daylight flashers weren’t dual function, have wanted to run a wire loop to the center tunnel / 4th vacant switch position by the parking brake to accomplish this but haven’t to date...
     
  17. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
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    Daylight flashers were prohibited in Italy, in order to enable the functionality you have to connect the red/black loose wire(ref 113) to the fog-light switch (ref 63). See the wiring diagram of the Owner manual. Unfortunately this directly feeds the low beam lights instead of the high-beam relay. hence the reason it is not dual function.

    This is how I modified my diagram: see the pink "Modified" comment (yellow black from flashing relay disconnected from low beam output and joined together with red wire of high beam relay coil). Works great and does relieve the stalk:
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  18. Philippe Herve

    Jul 11, 2018
    21
    Vieux-Reng France
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    Herve Philippe
    Hi,
    My 412 purchased two years ago at Ferrari of Seattle come with two rectangular fog lights. But at the place of the switch is the switch of the electric antenna. I never found the right switch to use them. I've read the owner book without succes. someone have an idea to solve this mystery ?
    Thank you
    Herve
    France
     
  19. Part Time

    Part Time Formula Junior
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    Dec 16, 2013
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    Port St. Lucie, Fl
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    Gary Shore
    Hello, Herve.......
    I don't know about a 412, but on my S2 1985 400i, the pop-up headlights and the front fog lights are controlled by the same stick/wand on the left side of the steering column, it has different positions swinging up and down, and also twists/rotates to activate lights.

    Gary
     
  20. Philippe Herve

    Jul 11, 2018
    21
    Vieux-Reng France
    Full Name:
    Herve Philippe
    Hi Gary, thank you for your reply. I've tested this but it don not work. The car was imported in California from Belgium when it was almost new in 1986. Maybe at this time the californian legislation force to disconnect additionnal high beams ?
    I will check the connections.
    Thank you again for your help
     

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