Montana registration crack-down | Page 30 | FerrariChat

Montana registration crack-down

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Terence Courtnage, Oct 25, 2018.

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  1. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

    May 29, 2016
    1,061
    Newport Coast, California
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    Ron H
    Larry, I totally agree with you. Live and let live. We certainly should not care about these criminals and what happens to them. It is not our personal issue and it is a matter of their personal choice.

    As has been stated many times, tax evasion is a felony and these criminals can come up with all of the obfuscation and self justification that they want. If they get criminal records, go to jail, pay huge fines— we really shouldn’t care. If people want to live on the edge, cheat on their taxes, and risk all the negativity for what is relatively small money—- that is their issue, their choice. Live and let live. I totally agree.

    Of course, that said, we all should certainly support and encourage local authorities in enforcing laws because, in a civilized society, people voluntarily following the rules (and punishing those that don’t) is what makes the entire system work and keeps us safe at night.
     
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  2. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Is the tax based on the value of your car? If so, then you or your neighbor may not be paying your fair share based on the assessed value. How do you deal with this?
     
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  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,380
    Texas!
    Particularly when it comes to seven-figure collector cars that are rarely driven on the open roads, I totally agree with the Montana LLC idea.
     
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  4. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,346
    Weston, MA
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    Paul
    Yes.

    So your position is all houses in town should be valued the same for property tax purposes?
     
  5. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2011
    9,142
    virginia usa
    Dale one thing I am certain about is some people are very sensitive to this topic .... I look at it that if the guy down block is paying less taxes good for him not like they are going to cut my taxes no matter what the next guy pays
    states are great at burning through funds....
     
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  6. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Nope just your neighbors. How does that work?
     
  7. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
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    Paul
    How does what work?
     
  8. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Does your neighbor cover your expenses or do you cover his?
     
  9. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
    8,325
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    My issue is that my neighbors pay much less property tax than I do but have access to everything I do. They aren't into cars and I am. Cant drive them all at once so not using more road. It's a jacked up methodology for taxing. Keep in mind this is in addition to sales tax.
     
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  10. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,346
    Weston, MA
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    Paul
    Are you saying that taxes should be pay as you go? If you don't have kids in school you don't pay for the schools, if you don't call the fire or police departments you don't pay their part of the town budget, regardless of the number of cars you have you pay only per mile driven?

    That would be great for me. Our town total budget is $91.8 million. The school budget is $41.4 and the police and fire is $7.4. We don't have kids and have never called fire or police. That would cut my property tax bill by almost half. Although I would get hit on mileage because I drive the $ hit out my Ferraris. :)
     
  11. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    We do pay taxes as we go, it's called income tax. We also pay sales tax and property tax on our homes. To pay a recurring tax on your vehicles is egregious and why many people title out of state. I dont think people would cheat if they taxed more reasonably.
     
  12. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,346
    Weston, MA
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    Paul
    We both agree that the tax is a burden. In Massachusetts I pay 6.25% sales tax when I buy the car and then a yearly excise tax.

    And we both agree that registering out of state to evade taxes is cheating.
     
  13. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Just curious do you guys get credit for sales tax paid on trade in or do they tax you on the entire amount of the new car?
     
  14. INRange

    INRange F1 Veteran
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    Jan 27, 2014
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    I agree but the annual "car tax" is about wealth redistribution....nothing else. The politicians who put it in place said wealthy people have nice cars, boats and planes and can "afford" to pay a property tax which can be redistributed to the "less fortunate". Gas taxes and Sales taxes are seen as "regressive" by because they apply equally across the population and "hurt" the less fortunate more than they do wealthy people. It is that simple.

    What is really frustrating with this thinking is that exotic cars are not daily drivers. A lot of us may put 1000-2000 miles a year on a car which means we are taxed for something we don't use very often. Since this is not P&R I will refrain from commenting further.
     
  15. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    I live in an affluent neighborhood but some people aren't into cars although they can afford them. It is a crappy way to base taxes. Many people have found different methods for avoiding these taxes which I can't argue with, I don't blame them at all.
     
  16. INRange

    INRange F1 Veteran
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    Jan 27, 2014
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    Neither do I. That said there is a legal difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. In Virginia for example.....if the car is garaged in the State for more than six months of the year (183 days) it must be registered to the County where it is garaged. If it is garaged in another State or in a different Virginia county (with a lower car tax rate) for 183 days a year that is okay and legal.

    So....hypothetically I own property in DC and property in Florida and could easily garage (and title/register the car) in either location for 183 days a year which meets the letter of the law. That is tax avoidance and requires me to take a series of inconvenient but legal actions to avoid the car tax. The car can be driven on Virginia roads because it is properly titled and registered where it spends 183 days a year.

    Tax evasion is a different animal. In the case of Montana plates for example.....the car is not garaged in Montana 183 days each year. That means you aren't avoiding the tax ......you are claiming that you car is not subject to the tax because it is in an LLC which is headquartered in Montana but the car is actually garaged in Virginia. The legal test in Virginia is about where the car is garaged and for how long. Suggesting that an out of State LLC can keep a car garaged in Virginia and not have it be subject to the car tax is considered tax evasion by Virginia. I will leave it to the lawyers to argue about the fine points of interstate commerce law. My only observation is that you will spend a lot more money trying to convince a Judge than the car tax costs if you go down this road.
     
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  17. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    I owned a company that I sold a couple years ago that had an office in VA, we had ~70 vehicles all of which registered in MD. Having an office in MD saved us about $70k per year. If VA was more reasonable they would have gotten something vs. nothing. MD also gave us credit for taxes paid on the trade, VA sticks it in your ass at every turn.
     
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  18. PA32Pilot

    PA32Pilot Formula 3
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    Mar 5, 2020
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    I pay the sales tax in California on my cars I register in Montana. I just don’t register them in California.
     
  19. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    What’s the benefit then?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
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    Yes, it is the one break we get. You do get credit for the trade in and it reduces your sales tax.
     
  21. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Nice break they dont do that in VA which is another reason for many put of state plates. Even DC is less egregious.
     
  22. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 15, 2012
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    I can't believe this thread hasn't died already. Many states have immoral and confiscatory tax laws, all made up by shysters. Avoiding them keeps money out of their bottomless pockets. No moral hazard in that. Shysters are parasites who contribute exactly nothing to society; they create nothing, produce nothing, and provide nothing. They're ravenous takers, who make exactly no contribution. Keeping money out of their hands is a positive moral good.

    See Italy. Tax avoidance is the national sport, as well it should be.

    Lets get something straight: The only legitimate taxes a government can collect are on transactions. All other taxes are extortion and theft. That is a fact, and not my opinion.

    ~rolls joint and waits~ :)

    Shakespeare was right about lawyers. Change my mind. :D
     
  23. PA32Pilot

    PA32Pilot Formula 3
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    Mar 5, 2020
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    I don’t have to deal with emissions.
     
  24. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
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    for the simple reason there is no sales tax on cars in MT, low registration fees, and thus its a known fraud vehicle.

    (I've even heard that word is out on this and that the MT registration scheme has even resulted in discussion on car enthusiast websites...)
     
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  25. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
    1,051
    usa
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    doesitmatter
    750 postings in this thread . That’s more then the amount of cars over $150,000 registered in Montana (as of a couple of years ago ).

    a lot of discussion , concern , banter for such a small amount of cars in the overall scheme of things .
     
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