Fuel Injection Air Flow Meter Adjustment? | FerrariChat

Fuel Injection Air Flow Meter Adjustment?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by moysiuan, Aug 13, 2020.

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  1. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    #1 moysiuan, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
    Can someone explain this measurement procedure as per the Ferrari Bosch KE3 Fuel Injection System manual? What does the 2 divided by 2.2 spec mean? Does this mean a range of 2mm to 2.2mm? My spec is way greater than this, more like 2cm, that is how much the air plate goes down when I push down on the mixture screw. I am obviously measuring the wrong thing. The reference to position C by touch is confusing.

    How would one adjust this, would this be the mixture screw? Or does one go right to the plunger and adjust this for the proper initial spec? Is this the way to set the initial mixture, as opposed to the alternative method of removing a fuel hose from a port with the fuel pump on and adjusting the mixture just so a bit of gas flows in the port as is stated in other threads (eg. the Larry CIS rebuilder)?




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  2. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
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    I think they mean 2.0 to 2.2 mm of travel for the plate until the plunger moves. You can feel it if you have enough control pressure pushing against the plunger.
     
  3. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Thank you, makes sense, but what is the point of pushing on the CO screw down with a tool, can you not just push the plate itself by hand and feel the plunger being contacted? And if the measurement is off, what does one do to adjust?
     
  4. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    I believe the concern with pushing on the plate, is that it might get somewhat bent.
     
  5. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    Yes, I see that is quite the lever system, would not take much to bend and the small measurements translate to large movements.

    Still curious how one actually adjusts for this if the measurement is off.
     
  6. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    The Mondial 8 manual doesn't have this adjustment. I'm thinking in your manual, they meant to write 2 cm + / - 2.2 mm. So you're probably okay there.

    The method for adjusting initial mixture in the manual, is the same as what Larry has described.

    With regards to the mixture screw, I like the PCA method - Attach a vacuum gauge. Start the motor, and turn the mixture screw counterclockwise until you get a lean stumble. Then turn the screw clockwise for max vacuum. The mixture screw has about 1/2 turn between a lean stumble, and a rich stumble. So you want to be somewhere in the middle of that 1/2 turn.
     
  7. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    If the measurement is actually supposed to be 2 mm, then it could be that your plunger is stuck in the wrong position. Apply some lubricant to it.
     
  8. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    Okay, so I checked my K-Jet with Lambda (not KE3), and there is no clearance. The sensor plate is sandwiched between the rubber stopper on top, and the plunger.

    Your clearance specs must be in mm, and not cm, as stated in the manual. I would energize the fuel pump by turning the key to run, and remove the safety switch jumper. If that doesn't eliminate the cm in clearance, there must be something holding the plunger up in the FD.
     
  9. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
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    The sensor plate should not travel more than about 2mm until the lever mechanism touches the plunger. If the plunger is always in contact with the lever (0 mm), then there is a risk that fuel is always injected in the manifold. 2mm means 0.3mm at the plunger, so there is just enough to count in tolerances over time and temperature. My guess is that there is an older adjustment procedure where you try to feel the clearance of 2mm of the sensor plate. In the Mondial manual this is adjusted by the CO screw ... by turning until fuel is coming out through the injectors and turn back 1/2 turn.

    There is also the adjustment of the top side sensor plate zero position which should be max 0.5mm above where the cone starts. In the figures there is a dowel pressed into the distributor which sets this position.
     
  10. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    #10 moysiuan, Aug 15, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    Thank you for the various responses. To be clear, I have the car running well enough after my fuel distributor rebuild. But there is an anomaly that is bothering me.

    If I adjust the mixture with the O2 sensor blocked, and tune to the CO spec pre cat, the idle is fine but the engine will stall on pushing the throttle. If I connect the O2 sensor the engine immediately stalls. If I richen the mixture by more than a half turn, the idle is rough presumably too rich based on my Gunson CO readings but the car runs well off idle with O2 blocked. Under this outcome, with O2 connected the car will idle properly, but CO is much higher than with the O2 blocked. This mixture setting seems to cause hot start issues, and sometimes cold start as well. I have found a setting where the car runs well with the O2 sensor connected, and starts ok hot or cold and runs with some cold stumble, but CO reads too high at idle. But emission readings aside it runs well, and does start albeit with more cranks than it used to, but I could just leave it at that.

    But since it I would expect the car to run at idle more or less the same with or without the O2 sensor at the same mixture setting, and especially when cold starting with the O2 effectively disabled till warm up, I am getting different off idle responsiveness depending upon the O2 blocked or unblocked. It appears I can set the mixture optimally for idle and off idle but not both optimally. It got me thinking that perhaps my initial mixture plunger setting is off, maybe I do have too much fuel coming in all the time at the air meter neutral position. Hence I am revisiting whether I have the correct initial plunger setting in spec. I have also played with the TPS to make sure it clicks just off idle, and swapped with a spare to make sure that is not the issue.

    By the way, if the initial plunger setting does not allow fuel flow at the neutral air meter plate setting, how does the car get any fuel to hold an idle?

    I am tempted to get a proper gas analyzer on this, as my Gunson may not be accurate enough, but since I have the car running well enough, I suspect if I tune for proper CO with more sophisticated equipment I will just end up with the anomaly as I noted with the Gunson. So I want to understand the initial set up specs and make sure my starting points were done properly in the first instance. I may have the initial mixture screw way off, it has been turned so much I have lost the trail of where it was, and my initial plunger measurement may have not been precise when I did the distributor rebuild, my theory is I may have found the compromised setting at a wrong starting point that works but is not optimal. I have checked for vacuum leaks but there is nothing obviously a problem.

    Hence I am reviewing the Bosch Ferrari manual carefully for adjustment specs.

    Thoughts? I suppose the key question is why would my car need a richer base line mixture to allow the car to start and idle with the O2 sensor connected, than without it connected?
     
  11. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
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    The idle state is really just an engine running at 1000 rpm or similar. The plate is pulled down by the vacuum from the pistons pulling in the mixture.

    Did you test the fuel flow on each cyl after distributor rebuild? There were three set points if I remember right.

    Is the O2 sensor new?
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 Steve Magnusson, Aug 15, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    Is this happening during cold-running or warm-running?

    Have you confirmed that the 2-pin water temperature sensor is providing a reasonable resistance to the injection ECU -- i.e., if you measure the resistance from pin 3 in the unplugged injection ECU harness connector to pin 18 in the unplugged injection ECU connector, does the resistance match the resistance value shown in the graph on page 26?

    PS K-Jet and KE-Jet/KE3-Jet have different requirements for the plunger adjustment. For K-Jet, the airflow plate mechanism is always in contact with the plunger (even in the rest position of the airflow plate). For KE-Jet/KE3-Jet, the airflow plate should have ~2mm of play from the rest position until it contacts the plunger.

    +1 - the "Dixie Cup" test. This calibration is the added value that CISFlowTech provides.
     
  13. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    Your mixture screw can't be way off, or the car wouldn't even start. You must be within 1/2 turn of where it should be. But it sounds like you're richening the mixture there to compensate for some other problem. Were you ever able to swap out the injection ECU ?

    Also, instead of a gas analyzer, it might be more helpful to get an air/fuel ratio meter. There are some inexpensive meters on the market now. This way you can view the actual air/fuel ratio while you're driving the car, and get a better insight as to why it's stalling, etc.
     
  14. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    #14 moysiuan, Aug 15, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    New O2 sensor, new water temp sensor, new factory shrink wrapped fuel ecu. Was very careful in doing the distributor rebuild to not touch or alter the flow ports, did not need to clean the unit as it was very clean already so unless it was off calibration before it should not have changed. But it is possible my rebuild was not as thorough and port tested as a pro rebuild would do and therefore not optimal. I did not test the fuel flow for each port, rather I hoped by leaving things largely be that the unit calibration would be maintained.

    All my adjustments were done when fully warmed up, blocking and unblocking the O2 sensor. Cold starts the next day to see how things behaved cold.

    I suspect I am fine and just need to tweak the mixture 1/16 a turn at a time, it is running very well, the interplay between the mixture screw and the air bypass makes for a lot of fine tuning potential. My Gunson meter is pretty basic and it is not a perfect connection to the pre cat port so getting air dilution is likely when I measure CO. I am making an adapter to direct fit to the port. Getting the car running with rock stable idle at 1,000 Rpm, no hesitation off idle has been achieved with the O2 Sensor conndcted, there is a very minor hunting at about 2,000rpm which I understand is normal as the O2 sensor does its thing, I still need to do a few more cold and hard starts after finer adjustments to see if that is ok.

    Needless to say, I understand the set up quite well, it is quite brilliant with all the interactions going on. Will probably do new injectors and seals this winter, they are on special order, and I will do the Dixie cup tests then and confirm if my distributor rebuild calibration is off.
     

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