Swapping 458 for 675LT or Speciale?

Very interesting stuff.

Bit of a tangent here (think OP's question has been very well-answered by those with experience of the 675 and Ferraris):

How optimistic / pessimistic are you on the long-term (say, 10 years+) value of the 675LT? It seems to be reaching a point where it's hard to see it fall much further, for a universally-acclaimed limited-edition. I've heard the term 'modern-day F40' used to describe the 675, and we all know where F40 prices are now. Of course, there were many other factors at play there (Enzo's last, etc), but given the direction that cars are heading in - smaller engines, more weight due to hybridization, less noise / emotion / connection, I don't know how many more cars like the 675LT we'll see again.

... And then you consider the risk that McLaren Automotive folds, and it suddenly doesn't look quite so rosy!

I strongly considered a 675 before I bought my 488, and while I don't regret the decision at all, I wouldn't rule out one day going back in for the 675 (as an addition, not a replacement).

 

Good points. I think long term desirability will also depend on whether the 765LT delivers a similar (or better) driver experience. If it does, then add a further 1,530+ cars to the pool of Super Series LT's which would obviously dilute its special-ness.

 

It would be shocking if the 765LT is not a singularly stellar super car. Enhanced capabilty over the 720S but most importantly, more compelling and thrilling driving dynamics. Should be everything the 675 is but significantly more.

 

As much as I love the 675LT, comparing it to the F40 is just nonsense. Why? Because of the existence of the 765LT.

What makes the F40 so special is its provenance, which among other things include the fact that it was the last Ferrari approved by Enzo personally, and was a culmination and celebration of 40 years of Ferrari. Not to overlook is the fact that the engine was an evolution of the 288 GTO race derived power plant.

No such underpinnings exist with the 675LT, as great as a car as it is, it is essentially a tarted up 650S, although the "tart" that McLaren added was very sweet indeed. But more importantly, the fact that there is a 765LT just diminishes the greatness and uniqueness of the 675LT. By comparison, there is no successor to the F40 (please, no one, mention the F50).

As to price and value of the 675LT, I can't really see it falling much further (approx. 225k for a nice coupe, maybe a little higher for a spyder) is the f*cking bargain of the century, even if you do have to spend $$$ on an extended warranty.

 

^ Chris Harris F40 vs F50 POV.

 

Same track (Le Mans Bugatti), same professional driver (Christophe Tinseau), similar tyres (semi-slick, Michelin PSC2 on the Ferrari and Pirelli on the Mc): McLaren 675 LT, 1'44"04, Ferrari 488 GTB, 1'44"28 - for me that's pretty near, I don't consider less than 1/4s on a full lap as a huge gap. That's subjective of course.
There are other registered lap times that are also very close (Anglesey, Hockenheim (short), Sachsenring) but I'm not sure they were set with same drivers; in most cases the 675LT is indeed faster but by a small margin.
That makes me feel that the 488 GTB is better engineered because with its weight (and probably power) advantages the 675LT should make more difference.

 

“Tarted up 650” is inaccurate given that 60% of the car is different than a 650. I’m also not agreeing that it’s another F40, just a very special car, period. The video discusses many of the changes from a 650.

 

Yes, the comparison I heard related to the experience of driving the car, not future values (it was on The Car Guys YT channel, one of their 675 videos - the presenter owned both the 675 and F40). Though I'm sure that driving an F40 is a thrill, when it comes to appreciation, there's a hell of a lot more to it.

 

I dont recall but...isn’t the 600LT faster, better, more advanced, possibly cheaper now, and more reliable?
Harris chose 600LT over the Pista also.

 

600LT does not have the now-banned F1 suspension that the 675LT has.

Also active aero, which the 600LT does not have.

 

That suspension is a double-edged sword. It is other-worldly in terms of the compromise between lack of roll and suppleness (all cars have to trade these off but the Tenneco system on the Mac has a much higher trade-off point). The downside is that it is not so natural feeling and it is part of the original criticism that Mac cars were a bit over-efficient and characterless. I always thought that was too harsh and the super-trick suspension was one of the experiences I loved about my Mac, but I did prefer the Ferrari’s oh-so-subtle and well judged suspension and chassis that is more deft and feelsome. It’s great to try a Mac at least once for the different thinking they brought to making a supercar and the suspension system is probably the best example of that.

 

There is nothing artificial about the way the 675 feels, every review carries on about the delicacy of the feel of the 675, does the P1 and Senna feel artificial to? The modern Ferrari’s are widely criticized for artificial and too to fast steering and twitching throttle. Overkill in those areas I view as a gimmick to make the car feel racy instead of just making a thoroughly engineered setup. The 675 shares the steering rack and many suspension components with P1.

 

Frankly, the only opinions worth listening to are those with seat time in the 675. Unfortunately the early and deserved criticism of the 12C/650S seems to have affected what people assume the 675 is like to drive. Myself and every owner I know love the car, and at least 3 of us also own GT2 RS’s. We unanimously agree that the 675 is the preferred and more exciting car and that it makes no sense that the Porsche should be worth more money.

 

If they are the standard racing seats they share the same carbon frame as the Touring size just more padding material so I believe they can be modified, check with a McLaren dealer. I have Touring size and they’re very comfortable, just the right amount of room for me. 6’ 2” 190lbs. The seats also can be fixed at 3 different height settings.

 

My 650s was such a dog I can’t get myself to consider a 675. Agree with your POV.

 

Based on your list I think you will be more happy with the Speciale. If you add weight or suspension to the list that might sway you the other way. I personally think the 675 has some way further to go down and the speciale has a higher chance of holding or increasing in value. Current owners of the 675 really love their cars but its hard to find new owners, perhaps because there is so much to choose from and buyers have not tried the car. Performance and price of the 720 puts special pressure on the 675. I dont see the same effects on the Speciale. Looking forward to read what you think of the 675 when you try it

 

The 720S is far faster than the 675LT, which leaves the 675LT in a strange position - the supposedly rawer and more focussed car being plainly slower in all conditions...
The 458 Speciale is also clearly outperformed by the 488, but the Speciale is saved by the fact it's NA vs the turbocharged 488.
The 675LT is more in the position of the Scuderia compared to the 458 - many will prefer the 458.

 

The 720 is more of a competitor to a 488, because it’s designed to have a broader comfort range. The 675 to Scud doesn’t totally work because the 675 does comfort way better than the Scud. Yes the 720 might be faster than the 675 but who cares? I can’t imagine not being satisfied with the pace of the 675. As long as we keep focusing on HP and lap time we will lose sight of why most of us enjoy the cars and that’s for the way they FEEL when driving them. The vast majority of the buyers of these cars, including myself are really not skilled enough to handle the insane speeds they generate. The more HP the manufacturers create the more they need to protect you from it which often leads to a video game experience vs a driving experience. All these cars are faster than a Carrera GT, which would you rather have?

 

My comment about suspension is against the 600LT (I.e. the lack of the Tenneco suspension in the 600 is not automatically a reason to prefer the 675). But there is no denying, the lack of mechanical LSD is not an advantage for chassis feel in any cars equipped with it - and that is not the same as saying the 675 feels bad, it clearly doesn’t. The steering on the 675 is certainly excellent and the whole car works really well together. Every car has strengths and weaknesses, good points and bad points, the biggest negative I felt for the 675 was the engine, which was very powerful but otherwise unremarkable and neither sounded nor delivered its power as nicely as the 488. The OP simply needs to work out what he likes and where his priorities lie. A 600 LT is probably not a bad suggestion either. I have not driven, nor know any owners of those, but they seem to be very well regarded.

The Speciale is more valuable for a reason though; more people prefer it compared with the cars available. That’s just a truth of the market and it’s why the price is higher. If the OP is someone who is in that group that prefers the 675, good for him - it’s cheaper and will probably (IMV) not depreciate loads further from here - certainly not like the original owners’ experience anyway. But if you would have a better time with a Speciale, then I don’t believe it’s a good idea to settle because you’ll be back in the market again quickly, which always costs the dealers’ fee regardless of which depreciates how.

And I agree with your comment above.

 

I have heard people say the 675lt has significant turbo lag, that is a non starter for me. The 488,Pista and F8 engine Ferrari has figured out how to darn near eliminate the lag. I certainly couldn't’ feel it driving the F8.

 

Ive never heard anyone say that

 

There is definitely lag.

 

There is... but to me its more of like an explosion of speed. Your going fast and then kaboom.. your going really fast. Its kind of fun! Quick spin in one reminded me of my old motorbike VFR800..

 

I feel zero lag in my 675. But if you read it on the internet it must be true. Thank you for your valuable contribution.