Just Bought a 360 ... What's Next ? | FerrariChat

Just Bought a 360 ... What's Next ?

Discussion in '360/430' started by Herbert Hamber, Jul 23, 2020.

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  1. Herbert Hamber

    Herbert Hamber Karting

    Jul 17, 2020
    66
    Irvine Ca
    Full Name:
    Herb
    #1 Herbert Hamber, Jul 23, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2020
    Just bought a Ferrari 360 two weeks ago, it is a 2004 with 26k miles on it. Seemed like a pretty good deal, the outside and inside is, on the surface, in excellent shape. From what I could gather from the paperwork associated with the previous owner, the car has new brake rotors & pads, a clutch at 50% (claimed to be a lie, see below), new fuel pumps and possibly even a new engine put in at some stage (the interpretation of what exactly was done is not clear).

    I drove it around for a week, every day, and it drives very nicely. Plenty of power, good sound, no weird noises or odd behavior that I could tell (my first Ferrari though!). It has the F1 gear and the clutch seems to work flawlessly.

    On the last day it just died going uphill, and I had it towed to the local Ferrari of NB service here in Costa Mesa CA, with the idea of fixing whatever problem it had, and do a PPI (Post Purchase Inspection ).

    It turns out it died on the road because it ran out of gas: Three bars left but the tank was empty! They put a couple of gallons of gas in the tank, and it fired right up at the dealer.

    Let me add that I don’t have any significant mechanics skills beyond the most basic maintenance, usually just on motorcycles such as Honda.

    So here comes what the dealer (Ferrari service NB) said / recommended:

    (1) Car died because of a bad fuel sending unit - $1,800 … He says a new float & arm is something like $500, the rest is labor. Paperwork that came with the car claims both fuel pumps are new OEM, one year old. Will do this one as it seems a critical safety issue.

    (2) Some sort of alarm siren is not working - $1,000 … Did not even know it had such a thing, but it seems like a necessary fix.

    (3) Dash leather is starting to shrink … $5,600 just to pull the dash … will skip this one ! Leather looks pretty good to me.

    (4) He says all four tires are 10 years old with thread depth at 4 to 5mm & should be replaced soon, $1700. Will do that at some stage, but where ?

    (5) Alignment is needed with tire replacement (makes sense to me). Will do that when tires get replaced?

    (6) They tell me the clutch must be around 100% worn, meaning the clutch needs to be replaced either now or very soon (it appears that in a previous repair orders they did replace lots of related parts, but possibly not the clutch itself). On the other hand, the dealer that sold me the car (CNC in Upland) two weeks ago claimed repeatedly that the clutch was at 50%, I asked him (the dealer) a very direct question about that, and also on the belts. So there is a bit of a discrepancy here?? I am not sure how they even tell from the outside what the clutch wear is. The car drives fine - to me - with no slipping whatsoever. Update : The technician at the Ferrari NB shop drove the car this morning, and says it is around 100% worn, it seems fine but perhaps some tiny slippage? Not sure how to interpret. He tells me that if the clutch starts slipping, I would notice it (goes into neutral). A new clutch seems like an $8k job.

    (7) The technician noted that there is a lot of oil on the belly pan, they cleaned the engine nicely and then ran the vehicle for ½ hr to see if there is an active leak - $600 … But then after looking at it closely now from underneath with the engine all nice and cleaned up, the technician says now there are no visible leaks, and whatever (clear nice yellow) oil was there was probably from the car not being driven for months (tightening up of gaskets etc). So all seems good !

    (8) One code coming back on for the check engine light says there is bad O2 sensor - $1,160. I assume this would become an issue if the car gets smog tested again at some point ?

    (9) He also recommends an annual service (mostly oil & fluid service from what I understand). That might not be needed right away, me thinks.

    (10) The technician says all the belts look new (I looked at them too), they still have some white factory markings on them, no need to do anything for now.

    (11) Further inspection this morning by the technician with the running engine reveals some sort of rattle inside one of the manifolds (the rhs one). It is claimed that parts of the catalytic converter might have come off or be loose, and that some of it might eventually get sucked back into the engine? But then I was thinking that small loose parts of it might just fall out when you take the manifold off ? I cannot see how the whole unit (or even major parts of it) would get sucked back into the engine ... physically just not possible ? I understand a new manifold is a whopping $8k, parts only (rebuilt ones are not available, it is claimed).

    Looking forward to useful comments, to enlighten me Thanks !!

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  2. Husker

    Husker F1 World Champ

    Dec 31, 2003
    11,788
    western hemisphere
    Do you have an service history on the car? That would really help in order for you to get good feedback.

    If you are flying naked and don't have anything, you would be advised to not only do an "annual service" but a cam belt service. Surely if the belts look new, you can track down its last service and get some feedback. Belts can look new and be 15 years old in a Ferrari. The same goes for 10 year old tires, etc.

    Just hard to say without knowing more about the car. A used Ferrari can pop you $10-20K right out of the gate, depending on how much everything has been deferred. It also depends on how "right" you want the car.
     
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  3. PFSEX

    PFSEX Formula Junior

    Jun 30, 2006
    843
    Las Vegas
    Full Name:
    John Ratto
    Prices you quote are out of this world.

    First thing to do is determine how long ago the timing belt service was done.If more than 4 years, that should be the first thing you address.

    Hint: This is a dry sump car. Oil level must be checked with the engine hot and running. If you check with engine cold you will overfill and have oil on the undertray.

    The clutch on automatic cars like yours has a sensor that indicates wear.

    I would be very leery oof anything this Ferrari NB says.

    You are a babe in the woods - tread silently.
     
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  4. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,970
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    Fuel pump might be under warranty if less than a year. If not, $700 or so for a pump driver side that comes with the sending unit attached. and 25 minutes to replace...simple job. $1300 labor really? Definitely change the tires...way too old for the way your going to drive the car. Michelin 4s I think at around $1100.
    I haven't needed to align my 04 spider ever from replacing tires. O2 sensors are like $100 or so....15-25 minute job. $1160?
    My car DID pull a piece of precat into the driver side engine...missed a very expensive bill as the piece either blew back out or flattened on a piston. I had the exhaust manifolds "altered" a little to avoid any future issues. Used exhaust mans are available as well. Not trying to rag the dealer but $$$ whew!
    HTH
    Brett
     
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  5. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,970
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    BTW...congrats on your purchase. Drive it like you stole it....after new tires!!
     
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  6. Zanny1

    Zanny1 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2003
    974
    Arizona
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Find another mechanic. Those prices are ridiculous.
    10 year old tires.... if it was me, I'd change them now. Be careful with alignment shops as many of them have no idea how to correctly set up a 360.
    Cam belts can look OK long after they need to be done. If you don't have records, that would be my next step. I do them every 5 years on my 360.
    Can't help you regarding the clutch as mine has a gated shifter.
    Headers/manifolds/cats have been known to rattle. Yes they are costly to replace. Suggest a second opinion. The cats can disintegrate and cause motor problems, a topic well covered on this website.
    Alarm battery - suggest you put a battery tender on the car when not in use and don't worry about it. The alarm has it's own battery supply. The batteries go bad after a few years. IIRC the alarm then saps the chassis battery, thus the suggestion for a tender. If you don't know how to hook up a tender, have the (next) shop do it for you. It's pretty easy to access the battery in the footwell.
    Annual service? If you don't know when the engine and transmission oil, as well as coolant, was last changed - do it now. This is important to avoid future problems.

    Wonderful cars and quite reliable. PM me if you want to talk about this topic.
    Mike
     
  7. RANDY6005

    RANDY6005 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 9, 2017
    2,267
    Jacksonville
    Full Name:
    RANDY
    Sounds like my story too, first service at Ferrari Dealer in Orlando Fl was over 15000.00 grand. I would just take your time and research every thing they told you was bad . You can be taken to the cleaners if do not research for example , coils packs at the dealer 300.00 400.00 or more look Ebay you can buy 49.00 a piece there is eight of them . Check out Eurospares in the UK there prices are very fare they ship very fast most next day they have save me thousands . 360 looks great !
     
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  8. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    21,369
    In the past
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Congrats on your car.

    Dash - Treat the leather with a good product to get it back in shape and keep it there. Use a sun shade.

    O2 sensor - Price quoted is outright rape.

    Belts can look new after many yrs. No service records on last replacement? Tensioner bearings are just as likely to fail. Cursory visual inspection means nothing. Of course they could be new and you are golden for a few yrs.

    Get new tires. 10yo rubber is hard and slick. Car will feel so much better with fresh rubber.
     
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  9. SpencerMarks

    SpencerMarks Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 15, 2017
    171
    Woodstock, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Spencer
    So I haven’t even read these comments yet. But please do me a favor and DM me if you have any questions. (start conversation). I have a similar story from them regarding an F430 I purchased recently (last week). They serviced the car for 2 years for the previous owner.

    Long story short they requested/told the previous owner he needed a completely new clutch and TO bearing/seal and associated gaskets due to leaking. I then inquired about a PPI. Told me he could squeeze it in. He said it was 1200-1400 bucks can’t remember. I decided to shop around. I contacted Larry of Ferrari Technologies who did a PPI on a previous F403 I was looking at. Larry not only squeezed me in to a 2 week wait period, but removed the F50 he had on the rack, spent 6-7 hours with the car, drove it, had a body shop inspect the car, and even cleared some erroneous codes for me, all for 500 bucks. He then spent 30-45 minutes talking about each detail of the car. Down to the panel gap measurements.

    Additionally Larry told me the clutch had 75% life left and it wasn’t leaking at all, only a minor weeping was noticed. The undertrays were spotless. He told me the car drove great and to change a while clutch was ridiculous.

    In summary, go to Larry.
     
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  10. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    772
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    First, congratulations on the beautiful car.

    second....Mate...you’re gonna have to get yourself educated or else you’re going to get taken advantage of and they’re just gonna pull money out of you like crazy. Seriously... please spend some time on this forum searching reading and learning about your car or else it’s going to cost you a lot of money. Also, go to Eurospares.com to check for pricing on parts for your car. Spend some free time browsing through the different charts with different parts and Familiarizing yourself etc.

    If you need a place to start, also Google Aldous voice and check his website for info, spend some time reading his articles.
     
  11. S F

    S F Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 13, 2016
    164
    Texas
    First off, the car looks very nice, congrats on the purchase!

    Those prices are insane, I wouldn't take the car back to that place or give them a dime more of your money as they are trying to take advantage of you.

    As far as the clutch, the percentage worn can be read by your dealer or with certain scanners. Personally, I'd invest in the scanner and pull the information yourself so you know exactly what is going on. You would also be able to look at engine codes and make proper decisions before authorizing any repairs. Did they give the exact code that the bad O2 sensor is causing? The pre-cat O2 sensors are Bosch 17001, and can be had for less than $100 each from reputable online sources. I'd recommend changing both while in there. They are very easy to change and it can be done in 30 minutes or less.

    Oh yeah, I agree 100% with them on changing the tires immediately. If the car is driving straight and the current tires are wearing evenly, I'd probably skip the alignment.
     
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  12. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Congratulations on the purchase. Despite all of the moaning, the prices look like pretty typical dealer prices. Talk to an independent mechanic, there are many good ones in your area, and it will save you some $$. This is exactly why I say that it is all about condition. You are buying as much from the person as the car. A low priced car can quickly add 20K (and be an expensive car) in the first service sorting important/neglected issues. AND it will throw you another 10K bill if you own the car long enough.

    Tires are critical, do them now. Tire rack and your new found indi from above, he can install them. Annual and if you can't verify them do the belts now as well. O2 now, but that is easy and your indi can do the siren for probably under $500 or you can do it for under $200 in parts. Skip the clutch if it isn't slipping. I would skip the dash right now too. They might be able to get a scope through the hole for the O2 sensor but I don't know for sure. If they can it will give them a peak at the pre-cats; maybe one of the pros will chime in here.

    Anyway, look in the local section for a well known indi and go from there.
     
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  13. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,756
    yeh dont let the stealer touch your car. find an independant and you won't go bankrupt.
     
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  14. Sal Manzur

    Sal Manzur Formula Junior

    Sep 12, 2004
    282
    Upland Ca
    Full Name:
    Salvador Manzur
    Look up FAI in Costa Mesa. Rod Drew is an independent Ferrari mechanic. I have taken my 360 and Dino to him for 12 years. Honest man
     
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  15. the_dan

    the_dan Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 6, 2016
    136
    Hong Kong
    Re the fuel, the exact same thing happened to me with my newly purchased spider.

    Showed two bars full, and left me on the side of the road when it ran out of gas. Bad fuel sender as well.

    The price you quoted for this piece of work seems ok to me and is in line with what I paid (albeit in Hong Kong so labour rates might not be comparable). On spiders I was told by my tech that the roof needs to be removed to replace the fuel pump (and I guess the sender) which may be the reason for the labour cost.
     
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  16. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    772
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    As far as the fuel issue, I've heard it's possible to bend the float arm while trying to install it, might explain the new pump but yet giving you the reading that it has fuel but running out of gas.
     
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  17. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2018
    5,086
    Houston
    Full Name:
    One4torque
    Fill her up at 2 bars! \\\\\\

    good to know!!!

    great car!!

    homework and diy will. Save your trust fund!
     
  18. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    Congrats! Nice looking car!
    If you trust new fuel pumps were installed, and there’s no fuel smell, the float is likely bent from installation. It’s a lot of labor on a spider to remove the top to get at it, so I’d just remember to fill it before it gets to two bars. Does it show all bars when full and takes longer to show the first bar depleted than subsequent? If so, it’s probably working ok, just off a bit.
    Replace tires ASAP. 10 year old tires can fail suddenly. I also suggest Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. They aren’t available in he U.S. in OEM sizes, but you can see from a separate thread that 225/40-18 and 285/35-18 will fit if you have OEM 18” wheels.
    The clutch can be read and inspected, but you need a lift.
    For service if you don’t want to DIY, go to F&M Motorsports in LA.

    https://www.ferrarishoplosangeles.com/


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  19. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,970
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    My spider has access holes at fuel pumps. Lower top halfway and support with a box or whatever. 5-6 screws and your looking at the pump. Mine is an 04.
     
  20. BrettC

    BrettC Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2012
    1,970
    Calif
    Full Name:
    Brett
    F&M ! Motorsports did my ppi when I bought my car. Great shop, Guiseppe is great.
     
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  21. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    He said 2004 so he should have access holes and shouldn't need to remove the top; early cars have that issue. But yes, fuel sending unit is lower priority than several of the other issues.
     
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  22. TheRealFlyingBear

    Apr 27, 2020
    152
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Grab an Autel 200 for around 60 dollars on Amazon. You can read your own clutch wear and clear codes. Talks to both motronics ECUs, transmission ECU, and airbag ECU.

    I removed my factory headers and installed aftermarket without precats to avoid precat failure. The idea of my engine needing a rebuild is unsettling. I would replace those immediately. I replaced them myself and it took me around 30 hours. :eek:

    https://www.amazon.com/Autel-Scanner-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Functions/dp/B07Y8HLS33/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=autel+200&qid=1595610652&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyUzM0OURUWEhVSDZSJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTQ0MDIxMU1WWlNPVFY0V0VKSSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTYwNDk1SktYTzMyVjY0QzJNJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
     
  23. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Veteran

    Jun 25, 2005
    5,687
    A couple of points:

    A pre-purchase inspection would have caught many of these issues and given you negotiation leverage and piece of mind.

    At some point during a car's life, Ferrari (Lamborghini too) dealers just don't want to work on them anymore.....nobody has training, parts lead times are long so they sit on the garage floortaking up valuable room, they assume (wrongly sometimes) that you can't afford to buy a newer one so no chance for an up-sell. So when you take an older car to them, you're basically forcing them to work on it and the pricing reflects that.

    Find a good indy mechanic and build a relationship. I can honestly say my mechanic is a friend.
     
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  24. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    It's unfortunate if you indeed have a loose pre-cat, but fortunate that 1) it hasn't apparently been ingested yet and 2) that it apparently rattles enough to be obvious.
     
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  25. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2018
    5,086
    Houston
    Full Name:
    One4torque
    Shark— I don’t disagree ... but what a short sighted business model!
     

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