F430 F1 System Troubleshooting w/ Data & Graphs | Page 3 | FerrariChat

F430 F1 System Troubleshooting w/ Data & Graphs

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by nessus-gte, Jun 4, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. F60SA

    F60SA Karting

    Nov 15, 2014
    82
    put an accumulator in it ... Duty cycle at idle is too high so that means its bleeding pressure. 430's are getting old and parts are wearing out. Did you pull the accumulator to check the bleed screws on the inside? If those are secure and the e-diff has been ruled then accumulator sounds to be the issue.
     
  2. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Thank you! That is a generous offer. I am not yet sophisticated enough to know how I would datalog the F1 system in a way that would be meaningful. There are others here that are, though. Maybe with their help we could further understand the root cause of this pressure loss problem.
     
  3. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    I have another hunch today, to be honest this problem has been in my head for more than a month, together with my misfire.

    my hunch is that there's really air in the system.

    are you, gte, 100% sure that you bled the system in full and in proper factory procedure? if so, would you please provide detailed procedure on how did you bleed the system?
     
  4. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,563
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Did you ever figure out your issue

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
     
    erthmeld likes this.
  5. erthmeld

    erthmeld Rookie

    Nov 24, 2017
    2
    Full Name:
    Gene Crumpler
    I'm also extremely interested in the eventual results as I'm chasing an almost identical issue and diagnostic path.
     
  6. ncm6cabrio

    ncm6cabrio Formula Junior
    Owner

    Jul 28, 2011
    303
    Fayetteville, NC
    Full Name:
    Mike M.
    Following for the updates...
     
  7. Phils430DIY

    Phils430DIY Rookie

    Sep 5, 2019
    18
    Wales UK
    Full Name:
    Phil M
    Hi, Just read 3 pages of very interesting and informative fault finding to be disappointed in the end of the F-chatt finishing without any completion of what corrected the original pressure loss problem. What Happened !!!!
     
    billy.gif and Ruperto like this.
  8. Ruperto

    Ruperto Rookie

    Mar 28, 2012
    21
    Manila
    Full Name:
    Ruperto
    Hi,
    Please do update us on what happened in the end? What is the conclusion good man?
     
  9. Phils430DIY

    Phils430DIY Rookie

    Sep 5, 2019
    18
    Wales UK
    Full Name:
    Phil M
    Doesn't look like the forum is going to get a update on this thread. Pity that all the graphs and pressure info on the gears has all been in vain. I'm new to this Ferrari forum stuff and find this failure to finish off with a detailed conclusion on the outcome sadly selfish. Who wants half a story??
    I am assuming that the vehicle is now fully functional.
     
    billy.gif likes this.
  10. Phils430DIY

    Phils430DIY Rookie

    Sep 5, 2019
    18
    Wales UK
    Full Name:
    Phil M
    Come on Nessus-GTE come back and tell us what the final conclusion was.

    I and others are dying to know as this was such a good F430 F1 issue, and you did such a lot of great analysis.
     
    billy.gif likes this.
  11. gatago

    gatago Karting

    Jun 28, 2019
    119
    Full Name:
    Marco
    I'm bumping the thread in hopes we can get resolution to this great thread.
     
  12. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    #62 nessus-gte, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
    Hello friends! I am back. It has been about 1 year since I was focused on solving this issue. Here is what happened:

    1. F1 System Rebuild
      I entirely removed my F1 power unit and actuator and had it rebuilt at GTE engineering.
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      Part of the delay in my response is based on my intention to document this entire removal, rebuild and reinstall process. I have completed about 70% of that writeup, but Phils430DIY can't wait anymore. ;)

      The removal requires following the Workshop manual steps precisely and communication with Serkan at GTE Engineering on what he needs. What you see in the above picture is exactly what was sent to GTE.

      After about two weeks the rebuild was completed. And here is what it looks like when received.
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      This includes, new custom built hydraulic lines and a many many new internal seals and part. Serkan found that one of my hydraulic lines had collapsed and was likely reducing actuation speed.

      Beautifully rebuilt actuator with custom machined end cap.
      Image Unavailable, Please Login

      Slowly and carefully I installed and connected all of the components based on Serkan's instructions and the workshop manual, including system bleeds using the Launch X431.
      Actuator fully installed
      Image Unavailable, Please Login

      Power unit fitment test. Electrical and hydraulic not installed yet.
      Image Unavailable, Please Login

      GTE Engineering Test Report
      This measures the new actuation speed which varies per rebuild, based on actuator wear and dozens of other factors.
      Final actuation test results on my unit show 86.6ms actuation speed.
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      Does that seem fast?
      It is fast. Faster than OEM. :eek:
      Your mileage WILL vary.
      And for added clarity, this is not the car's on-the-road gear shift speed, this is only the measured actuator speed. My car is not shifting gears at 86.6ms... it takes slightly longer than that. :D

      After this epic F1 overhaul the moment of truth came. I needed to drive the car and datalog again.
      Was my pressure loss problem fixed????????

      Image Unavailable, Please Login

      No. The pressure loss manifested itself the same way. :(:(:(

    2. Ediff solenoid replacement
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      I went through a lot of remote troubleshooting with Serkan about the continued pressure loss. Because the entire F1 system was perfectly rebuilt and tested, we concluded the greater likelihood was the Ediff was the root cause.

      I replaced the Ediff solenoid.
      However, the Launch X431 is famously unable to access Ediff diagnostic. This means I was unable to bleed the Ediff properly with my tools. UNLESS... I was willing to do the last ditch Ediff bleed workaround, which is to run the car at greater than 30mph while the car is on jack stands. I opted not to do this and instead bring the car to an indy shop with a Leonardo.

      NOTE: For anyone following in my footsteps, a new aftermarket e-diff tool is available now. I consider it a breakthrough. Search for: SMART E-DIFF SOLENOID VALVE TESTER ECU

      The indy shop bleed my Ediff circuit multiple times and returned the car to me.
      The pressure loss problem remained, and my data logs showed no measurable improvement. :(:(:(

    3. Shipping the car
      Image Unavailable, Please Login
      I escalated quickly. I shipped the car enclosed carrier to New Jersey for hands-on diagnostic at GTE Engineering. Serkan and I had talked for weeks about the issue at this point. This was the final option. He wanted to get the problem solved, so he made room in his shop and calendar to take the car.

      Serkan had the car for three weeks. During this time we spent hours on the phone discussing his deep-dive diagnostics and findings. Here is the conclusion:

      The car is operating within normal parameters.

      Below is the advice I was given and have followed for the past year. Because of this advice my anxiety has been minimized and my enjoyment of the car has returned. And no other drivetrain problems have presented themselves.

      Advice:
      Without dash warnings or DTC codes or shift-problems, don't worry about the pump cycle times.

    4. Conclusion
      For my situation and the circumstances for my car, and my very limited knowledge of F1 system operation, I was worried about data logs that I did not understand well enough.

      In hindsight would I still have gone through the full F1 system removal, rebuild and reinstall?

      YES. Yes, I would. Because driving a F430 with headers, ECU tune, a rebuilt F1 system, and no worries... is truly an amazing experience.
      :D

      The last annoying issue to resolve which I can no longer ignore.. is the damned popped out defrost vents.
      But that is a story for another time...

      Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    gatago likes this.
  13. Flyingbrick242

    Flyingbrick242 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 26, 2017
    603
    Northern AZ.
    Hey Charles.
    All I can say Is WOW...I have followed this case for quite some time now and was always interested what would be the root cause.
    My hats off to you for sticking with it and going through the intensive learning curve.!!!
    Thank You for sharing and extremely Happy you are back in action.
    All the Best.Kaspar
     
  14. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Hi Kaspar,

    Two years ago when I started this F1 system journey you and I connected on the Launch X431 tool. When I received the rebuilt F1 system last year, I had all the disassembled components sitting on my workbench. I took the head-first dive into reassembling and reinstalling it all because I trusted the Launch tool to make the project a success. The tool did not let me down. I did about two dozen F1 bleeds over the two months following the initial reinstall.

    You have also had your X431 for two years now. Please PM me. I'd like to hear what you have been up to with it.

    Cheers!
     
  15. Phils430DIY

    Phils430DIY Rookie

    Sep 5, 2019
    18
    Wales UK
    Full Name:
    Phil M
    Hi Charles, Great to see the final conclusion to your problems. I believe we are all perfectionists with our cars, and we like to think they are working as they should be. Therefore I can understand your initial concern when the F1 pump seemed to be over pumping etc. I'm a bit OCD myself with various sounds, creaks and rattles that my 430 makes. Then I think it's only done 16000 miles for Gods sake get a grip and relax. I also bought a Launch X431 and used it to do F1 actuator fluid change but I think I'll leave the graphs well alone for the foreseeable future.
    All the very best and stay safe

    Phil
     
  16. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
    370
    NC
    On the launch x431 I’ve recently found/noticed the Y axis isn’t seconds, it’s data points! Maybe this is a new bug but Curious if you measured with a stop watch as the scale can vary depending on the number of parameters being recorded.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    I don't buy the "25 seconds per cycle is fine" thing.
    Something is leaking more than it should.
     
  18. billy.gif

    billy.gif Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2017
    259
    Finland
    Here's "Hydraulic System Pressure" leakage from a 360 Modena after months of "winter hibernation":



    -Cold start and Neutral selected.

    And yes, my car is having weird shifting issues when car gets hot.
     
  19. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
    370
    NC
    Yes that’s not normal for it to fall that fast.

    What are the clutch solenoid leakage rates showing? There should be two data points showing one for engaged and the other not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. nessus-gte

    nessus-gte Karting

    Aug 31, 2014
    148
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Charles
    billy.gif likes this.

Share This Page