Is F1 falling apart?

Nothing wrong with turbo engines!
An unrestricted 4-cylinder 1500cc turbo engine would develop more than a 3.5L atmo engine anytime, be cheaper to produce, be lighter and easier to package.

 

But not as interesting and "shocking" for the show. Give me a 3.5L atmo anytime over a turbo one.

 

But who wants to listen to straight 4 turbo's? Theyll sound horrible. And a straight 4 is hard to package as they can't be used as stressed members. Might as well stick with that stupid V6 we have now then.

I also wouldn't be so sure the straight 4 would be that much cheaper in the long run. It'll be much higher stressed than a 3.5. I don't think it'll be much if any lighter, either. Turbo's and ancillaries aren't light at all. Especially a turbo large enough to produce (restricted!) 3.5 beating power.

The whole point of getting rid of the V6 is to improve the noise so that people become more interested. If all we want to achieve is to reduce cost just keep the current V6, take some of hte complicated bits out and replace them with simple stuff.

The only thing worse than the straight 4 is electric.

 

Exactly. I can absolutely guarantee more people would start watching F1 again. FIA/Liberty have to be very careful with their 2025 decision. Their 9 billion dollar purchase can be rendered worthless if they choose the wrong engine.

 

Production costs are minuscule compared to development costs.

 

We had that conversation many times, but you always advocate going back in time.

The next engine rules shouldn't be dictated by noise fetishists or aesthetic considerations.
The brief is to create a power unit, not build an organ. They are engineers, not musicians.
The next power units should be designed to be more efficient that the present ones.
F1 is meant to go forwards, not backwards.

With a turbo engine, you obtain higher output with reduced capacity, hence superior efficiency. What is there not to like ?
Reduced capacity means smaller engine size, and a 4-cyl block offers different packagings; it can be kept upright, lay-down, or transversal .
There is a choice of configurations: 4 in-line, or boxer, or narrow-angle or V4. A 4 cylinder can perfectly be used as stressed member.
Interestingly, Porsche chose a V4 to power their 918 sportscar and managed to win Le Mans 3 times in recent years. That surely validates the design !
There are dynamic advantages with a turbo 4-cyl compared to a NA V10 or V12: less moving parts, less internal friction, less torsional stress (shorter crank and camshafts). The engine would be compact and lighter too. It's a win-win situation!

But the present rules are OK, now that the gremlins have been ironed out and the reliability found.

 

Turbo technology is not rocket science anymore.

 

Apparently you've never heard a 3 cylinder, two-stroke SAAB with an open exhaust.

 

Who cares about "less moving parts" or "compact and lighter"? I want 20,000 RPMs, the noise to blow my ears, and flames!

 

If you think they won't spend 100's of millions to develop them, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Maybe, but not everyone shares your taste.
Some fans are more interested in science and technology in F1 than harmonics.
It's what makes a race car go faster that's important, not the sound effect!
The V12 piercing noise was a by-product of the multi-cylinder configuration, not the aim of the designers.
Now, some people want us to believe that noise if the most important factor in F1, it's total nonsense !!!

 

I don't think there is that scope of development left in turbo technology to justify spending "100's of millions" on it.
It has been around since WWII, and used well before F1, for longer periods and in harsher conditions.
The aero industry bore the brunt of the development cost.
Cooling, lubrication needs, variable blades, and other problems are well understood.

 

I ask you again, are you aware that you are in the VAST minority?

For every 1000 fans, maybe one will choose efficiency over simply great noise, given other things are more or less equal (i.e. lap times).

 

You can't possibly be that naive.

 

I happen to know someone who is engineer at Garrett, and I get my informations from him.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing-and-performance/performance-turbos/

Spending to improve turbos, yes, but not "100's of millons".
The challenges are the same: cooling, metallurgy, lubrication.

 

Does it matter? Do you always surrender to the majority?
I think you over-estimate your position, because your side makes the most noise (literally).
A few participants on this site have expressed an opinion nor far from mine regarding the hybrid formula.
In any case, I don't think the FIA will decide the next rule change after a referendum among fans, do you?

 

There is a whole lot more to turbo engines than just the turbo. And team would spend it (if they weren't forbidden).

Lets say the following:

3.5 Liter V10/12, 1000 bhp
1.5 liter 4 Cyl Turbo, 1000 bhp

Which do you think fans would prefer? Which do you think will draw the largest crowd, gets the most people watching on tv? Would sponsors (and therefore teams) not prefer the engine that draws in the most people? Easier to get money to keep the team going?

What you're proposing is that 1000 people are voting to go on holiday together. 999 say lets go to the Caribbean. 1 Person is saying, no, that's a terrible idea, I want to go backpacking in Kabul.

And somehow everyone ends up in Kabul.

 

Do you speak to the average F1 fan, ever? Or do you only hear what you want to hear (the 3 people in favour of techno nerd engines)?

No I don't think the FIA would listen, because the FIA takes their orders from the manufacturer paying the most.

I will leave the F1 forum if more people would rather have 4 cyl or current engine over 3.5 V10/12

 

Errr... we had a 4 cyl turbo winning a championship in the past remember, and I don't think the fans left F1 in drove then.
The 1500cc BMW went on to show 1500hp on the bench. Try that on your NA 3.5L V12!

Most people watching F1 don't have a clue about engines, if the truth was told.
You only have to listen to comments in the crowd around the circuit to judge how ill-informed people are.
What interests them is the spectacle, the day out, or the vacation around a GP.

Sponsors look for the team that gives them the most exposure for their money by being at the front, and/or winning.
Never heard that sponsors made their choice according to noise.

As I said, F1 isn't a democracy, it's driven by business interests.
Applying advanced technologies is more attractive to investors than repeating the past.

 

If you leave the F1 forum for that reason, that would simply be a knee-jerk reaction.
You can't get your way, so you would throw a tantrum. It's your choice.
I thought you liked F1, through thick and thin, regardless of engines, teams and drivers.
Or maybe you suggest that since I am in a minority, I should leave perhaps?

You are damn right that the FIA listen to those who invest in F1; it's their business.
"Who pays the piper, calls the tune", never heard of that?

 

Very true!

But the FIA has forgotten who really pays the Piper... At the end of the day, it is the fans. Without eyeballs, the manufacturer would disappear instantly.

The FIA's mistake is believing it is the manufacturers who pay...

 

It's the manufacturers who negotiate, commit themselves, sign contracts, put money upfront, invest, etc ...

 

And if the fans don't watch.... POOF.

It's the FIA's job to put on a show the fans want to see.

Instead, the FIA has chosen to provide a format for the manufacturer's to advertise their companies.

 

OK, OK enough. I've got the solution.

The cars will be all electric and have loud speakers mounted to the outside of the car. The team/driver will be able to select any sound that is programmed into the main, single source supplied, control computer (preferably made in China). V-10, V-12, Turbo 4, 6,8,10, or 12..whatever they prefer.
All power units (electric motors) will be 100 HP to make it fair for everyone who competes. The real challenge will be which team can produce the best amplified sound. Rules for this will be stated within the 286 page amplifier rule book (music is not allowed) as directed by the FIA. The cars will be multi-use and have detachable fenders for Indy. They can also be used for Formula E. Cars will have the option of being lit underneath with neon or LED's for night use.
Races will be 2 hours in length but will be limited to 10 laps. This will allow sufficient time for advertising, which has to include at least 30 minutes of "Green" product ads.
There will no use of gender identifying words at an event such as he, his, boy, she, her, or girls. All teams will wear the same uniforms so that there is no jealously or feelings of being left out by team members. The sport will be all inclusive including sight impaired drivers.

In the event a team or teams shouldn't win the race (every team will get a ribbon), there will be a parking box which is designated a "Safe Space" where the cars/drivers can shelter in place away from the jeering and booing of a insensitive crowd.

This should make for a really exciting "Feel Good" event that would be watched by 100's of millennial's world wide.

Easy Peasy!

 

Personally, I love reading arguments from opposite sides of the spectrum from ardent fans. Far better than reading through the circle jerk frenzy in the P&R threads any day. Bas and william are extremely well-versed and cover some excellent points. Nothing like parry and thrust. .

I’ll never quite figure out why people want to repeatedly hear stuff that confirms what they already believe Ad nauseum rather than stuff that challenges their beliefs. I guess social cohesion is a better feel-good factor than the fun factor of defending one’s beliefs then demanding the same in a counter-challenge.