F1 not engaging | FerrariChat

F1 not engaging

Discussion in '360/430' started by Ferrari Chicago, May 29, 2020.

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  1. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    He everyone, I am new to this forum. I purchased a 2003 360 spider about a year ago. It has been running great until last weekend. I was driving normally coming to a stop, it was downshifting by itself and appeared to be downshifting slower than unusual. It went down into third and then directly into neutral. After that, it would not shift out of neutral. No errors or anything. I had the car towed home and connected my launch scanner to it. I manually selected a gear and when I selected 3rd the transmission came back to life. I next ran the gear actuator calibration procedure and it stopped midway and I received two error codes P1741 (Engagement Potentiometer absent) and P1742 (Selection Potentiometer Absent). Is it possible that both of these all of a sudden are not working properly, or is it something else? Also, I looked online and both of these are very expensive (over $1K each), has anyone replaced these with the Peugeot Throttle Position Sensor 964247320 which costs about $30?

    I drove the car yesterday and it rode fine, but it did beep at me once and did not shift, but did shift after I pulled the lever again. Some more information, the clutch is almost new at 78%, no slippage at all. The PIS is set at 4.83.

    Any help would be appreciated!!!
     
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  2. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    Sorry the The Peugeot Throttle Position Sensor I was talking about is part # 9642473280
     
  3. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Sounds like you have a buss error, TCU error, or a sensor error.
     
  4. PCarRI

    PCarRI Karting

    Feb 23, 2020
    221
    Rhode island, USA
    How's your voltage? A friend with a 430 had the exact same problem and changed the battery out, problem instantly went away. Was a bit funny bc he spent two days researching codes and calling people, just for it to be the battery.
     
    Apollo 11 likes this.
  5. 3POINT8

    3POINT8 F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 23, 2014
    4,397
    sounds like the F1 sensor to me. i had this issue with my F430.
     
  6. billy.gif

    billy.gif Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2017
    259
    Finland
    I find it rather difficult to believe that a battery issue would just affect gears 3-2-1 and rest of them would perform normally?
     
    Skidkid likes this.
  7. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    I agree. I guess technically possible because you shift them more and IF the battery was so marginal that it can't run the pump adequately you MIGHT see it manifest in lower gears. Then again, you would see a host of other power related issues so it would be obvious.
     
  8. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    Thanks for all the replies. The battery is good. It was purchased last year and on a charger. Shows 13.2v. Just to clarify, when it failed to change gears nothing worked. Somehow it appears that the car thought it was in 3rd gear, when it put itself into neutral. When it fixed itself, it was working fine through all of the gears. I took it out for a drive again yesterday and it worked fine. I plotted the f1 system pressure and it remained between 40 and 50 psi. I will try to post the graph. I did take the undertray off and one of the sensors appears to have some oil on it. Could this be the problem? I would not tell where the oil was coming from, but it appeared to be gear oil.
     
  9. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Yep, that is probably the issue. Good catch.
     
  10. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    Skidkid, thanks for the input. Have you ever replaced the sensor with a Peugeot Throttle Position Sensor part #9642473280. The OEM ones are $1400 each.
     
  11. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    No I haven't. Sorry I can't comment on that application. First is are they the same size and mounting. Second is are they the same electronically, they may well not be.
     
  12. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    I looked this up on another thread and they mentioned that they are direct replacements but do not have the built in connector that comes with the Ferrari sensor. There was also some discussion that the original sensor wire has four conductors but only three are used.
     
  13. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    I ordered the sensors from England off of Ebay. When they get here, I will give them a try and report back to everyone. Hopefully they work, I would hate to shell out $3K for two OEM sensors if you can buy aftermarket ones for only $50 shipped.
     
    recoil likes this.
  14. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Pretty low cost gamble, well played. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
     
  15. billy.gif

    billy.gif Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2017
    259
    Finland
    Like 2 years ago I surfed to the French Ferrari Chat called "The Ferrarista".

    One really skilled DIY guy told me something about Peugeot / Citroen sensors compared to the Ferrari OEM sensors, here's straight copy-paste:


    1 - Normally your original Ferrari sensor (181325) has 3 wires, like the sensor Peugeot (9642473280), even it has 4 wires.

    2 - the wiring of your car has 4 colors of wires: black, blue, red and yellow.

    3 - the yellow is a dummy wire.

    4 - on your new Peugeot sensor : the red wire is on left, the blue wire in the middle and the black wire on the right part.

    YOU MUST USE A MULTIMETER, BECAUSE WITH THE YEAR OF YOUR CAR, THE COLOR OF THE WIRES CHANGES.

    If you are afraid to go wrong, ideal is to melt the black glue on the connector of the OLD original sensor. You will be able to see exactly where each wire connects. Normally you do not need the Ferrari SD-computer, but good with the Ferrari, we are sure of nothing .... Then you just put a new rubber on the Peugeot connector and it's over.

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    All the credits goes to the user "fabrices" at the ferrarista.club -site :)
     
  16. Ferrari Chicago

    May 19, 2020
    15
    Chicago, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Steven
    Billy.gif, Thanks for the information, this is very helpful. Like I said in my earlier posting, I ordered two of the sensors from England, I will give it a try and report back. Hopefully this works because the original sensors are hard to come by and are ridiculously priced at over $1400 a piece.
     
  17. raffaele de benedictis

    Mar 29, 2020
    3
    Canada
    Hi Ferrari Chicago: How did the Citroen potentiometers work on your car?
    I am experiencing the same problem with my 360. The potentiometer facing down on the F1 actuator of my car is full of gear oil also. I noticed that there is an o ring between the spacer and the potentiometer. I think that the o ring is the culprit that makes the gear oil leak. My car doesn't even start. The neutral gear on the dash is flashing and when I attempt to start it doesn't. I used the Launch bi-directional scanner and it flags two gearbox codes: P1741 (engagement potentiometer) and P1742 (Selection potentiometer). I would appreciate your post on the Citroen potentiometers and if they worked for you.
    Many thanks,
    Raff
     
  18. TuttoBene

    TuttoBene Karting

    Sep 6, 2020
    65
    Full Name:
    Doug
    Just got P1741 and P1742, about to order the Citroen potentiometers as a cheap and fun gamble. Has anyone else here completed the retrofit? Otherwise I'll plan on documenting the outcome.
     
  19. TuttoBene

    TuttoBene Karting

    Sep 6, 2020
    65
    Full Name:
    Doug
    A small update - I wired up a beautiful new sensor harness, complete with a pluggable connector to the Peugeot TPS, and then I found this - a busted shaft that the sensor connects to. Either this was actually the cause of my problems, or I somehow broke it during self-learning. I'm pretty sure I installed it the way it came out and had it in neutral.

    In any case, the TCU now doesn't make it past the first self-learn gear (R). Once I source a replacement for this shaft, I'll get back to the wiring harness part. It turned out really nice, and now I have a swappable $40 part that I can change every couple years. But first I need it to work.


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  20. TuttoBene

    TuttoBene Karting

    Sep 6, 2020
    65
    Full Name:
    Doug
    Updating this thread as well - it worked! I wired up a nice solution with actual plugs at the sensor. I just passed a full self-learn procedure. I had to get a special crimping tool, but in total I spent under $100 per sensor instead of $1500 for the stock part. I will do a full write-up with photos and parts, and will post it when I'm done.

    I got around the mechanical problem above by 3D printing a replacement. I will soon be ordering a metal version, which might actually be more durable than the original. I will also do a write-up on this once I have it all working and tested and will also post the design. The original part is pressed together, but I'm designing a single piece version.
     
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  21. TuttoBene

    TuttoBene Karting

    Sep 6, 2020
    65
    Full Name:
    Doug
  22. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    7,645
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    This sensor appears to be a Walker Products P/N 200-1345

    Many auto parts stores may have it
     
  23. TuttoBene

    TuttoBene Karting

    Sep 6, 2020
    65
    Full Name:
    Doug
    I designed a replacement for the broken shaft above. I first tested it using a 3D printed version, then ordered a stainless steel version on hubs.com. Amazingly, I'm back on the road and everything is working awesome using the reverse-engineered sensors and new shaft. It makes me wonder how many F1 units have been replaced because of this little part.

    The 3D files are here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6189085

    The new one is a single-piece stainless steel black oxide coated. The Ferrari original design is 3 pieces pressed together, which makes it weaker.
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  24. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,561
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Nice work

    3d printing will help us keep our cars longer and with less expense

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
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