F8 exhaust options. GPF delete | Page 2 | FerrariChat

F8 exhaust options. GPF delete

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by LMH, May 23, 2020.

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  1. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Maybe he is referring to Pista?

    F8 has the electronic variable opening valves which only open or close so much to maintain the necessary backpressure between the GPF. The amount opened or closed is determined by the ECU based upon the readings of the 2 pressure sensors.

    If the valves were help open all the time using another separate controller, tricked by dummy valves then that bi passes the ECU's measure there, but it won't deal with tricking the pressure sensors which will detect the immediate loss of back-pressure between the turbo and the GPF if the valves are kept in the open position. Maybe his 2500 includes the ECU re write?
     
  2. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I am no engineer or mechanic but the only way that this might work is if the valves are hollowed out so that they operate but they can’t shut the exhaust off but the new set of valves can when you want them too. I suspect if Ferrari finds out about it they will void your warranty.
     
  3. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #28 Shadowfax, May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
    That won't work as the valves create the correct back-pressure within the exhaust system so once that is removed or changed the pressure sensors will pick that up straight away and throw a CEL. Opening the valves releases the back pressure. This is the big problem. You may be able to bi pass the functionality of the valves by tricking the system to think that the valves are still being controlled by the ECU and working properly but you cant bi pass the pressure sensors or stop them from reading the change in back-pressure and pulse.

    You basically need a separate intake plenum and exhaust system with duplicate pressure sensors and then somehow create the right manifold pressure and back-pressure within each part of the system so the ECU registers all is working fine. I can't see how anyone is going to able to do that.
     
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  4. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    Wait until warranty ends and for a few thousand dollars, the F8 becomes a Pista.
     
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  5. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Update on the Pogea Racing (brains behind 'Monster Exhaust') F8 GPF "defeat" device. It is available now and includes the ability to block the "hot tube" port if you want a quieter cabin (optional CNC'd plug).

    This solution does not reprogram the ECUs but it does plug into the OBD II port and it simply deletes the codes that occur when the GPF devices are not present.

    And, in some markets, emissions testing will fail if GPF not present due to higher particulate counts (I think this would only be in the EU).

    Apparently the F8 ECUs check GPF device status every 8 drive cycles or every 50 miles driven or so.

    Because it uses the OBD II port (and has no ability to allow another device to use that port while it is plugged in) when the car goes for service or emissions testing that device must be removed and it is then possible the GPF fault codes will appear.

    As for not voiding Ferrari's warranty, as far as ECUs, true as they are not touched, but, as for removing emissions components, your warranty may or may not be at risk, please confirm with your local Ferrai dealer.

    Pogea will be working on this same method for the 812GTS/812SF with GPF devices.
     
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  6. LMH

    LMH Karting

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    Thanks, do you have an F8 that you are planing to improve the exhaust?
     
  7. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    I do not, but I do like to understand what is happening...
     
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  8. Dicecal

    Dicecal Formula 3
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    Did seem to sound much better, so I’m assuming a test pipe goes in place of the GPF. Also assuming a PITA to swap the GPF and pipes back and forth. However I would assume no dealers anywhere would play ball with that mod, so no warranty.
     
  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Their solution is turnkey and you would have to do your own work I'm sure if you wanted to go back and forth....
     
  10. Dicecal

    Dicecal Formula 3
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    Looks like a pretty good solution overall, as long as no potential harm to the engine when the GPF code comes up. I guess it’s cleared fast enough before the ECM can respond to it.
     
  11. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    GPF devices increase back pressure, and that, is harmful to the engine, reducing back pressure makes life easier for the engine....

    Yes, codes removed before ECUs can read...
     
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  12. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #37 Shadowfax, May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
    Firstly an F8 will never be a Pista whether it is remapped or not and the resale values will reflect the used market sentiment accordingly.

    Using your thinking the better scenario would be to buy a gtb on todays pricing - instead of an F8 - and tune it along with fitting new suspension and exhaust etc - even do a body kit - and pocket a ton of change.

    As is the case with any model - once you try to make it into the more exclusive variant by modifying it in a bid to obtain similar/same performance, the cost of doing so is never recovered, in fact the value of the car is lessened considerably unless returned back to stock as most used buyers prefer to buy a car which they believe has never been modified or played around with.

    With a Ferrari and other high end marques most used buyers like the thought they are buying a cheap virgin - which in reality is wishful thinking.
     
  13. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Not sure how that works as it is the ECU which reads the codes that is then able to detect a fault for it to be able to he then cleared.

    I would say it works the other way where the ECU reads the codes, detects the fault and then the plug in clears the codes. This also means the ECU records the faulty codes as is the case with all of these plug ins. Today’s ECU’s don’t let anything slip under the radar and this is where your warranty is gone.

    So realistically to achieve any sound improvement requires the removal of the GPF and possibly cats where the pair work in the space of the one casing - which is often the case. Then you will need to take full control over the opening or closing of the valves - by way of a controller and possibly a set of dummy valves - along with changing the muffler and entire exhaust system.
    This places other reputable tuners and exhaust manufacturers back in the game as alternatives to this offering as they also do full systems and ECU rewrites. I cant see this offering having any edge over the others as the stock ECU will still have all the codes registered anyway so again the warranty is history. Seems like a lot of expense and risk just to improve the sound.
     
  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    I was relaying what I found out, I did not create the solution...

    And I would think the GPF codes would be permanent codes that cannot be cleared.

    Evidently Ferrari's system routes codes via the OBD II port and allows interception and removal...

    I have no idea if that is accurate at all, this solution was presented by the OP and I did some investigation since it appeared novel in that it did not require ECU reprogramming.

    Maybe someone will give it a try and report back how well it works.
     
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  15. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Understand - wasn't meaning to chip you on anything, just point out that the ECU is the trigger point and cannot be got around when it comes to de-registering fault codes. Novitec has an OBD plug in to clear codes too so I don't see this Company as doing anything particularly new other than accommodating for clearing the GPF codes in their plug in which I'm sure Novitec could do as well.

    I also found the website for this Company very dodgey as it throws my software into malware hacker alert mode and I don't get that happening with other reputable sites such as Novitec, Kline and others.

    Anyway, at this stage it all sounds a bit pie in sky until such time someone here takes the chance with it, spends the money and does the work. However, it's a lot of time, trouble and money to address an exhaust sound which essentially removes your warranty in the process. Not sure if I'd be lining up to do that myself on a new F8 but others are free to offer themselves as the guinea pig here. For me, if I were prepared to toast my warranty and any goodwill beyond that period, - which I'm not - I'd be using a company like Novitec to rewrite the ECU and just replace the entire system and be done with it.
     
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    And GPF devices can be maintenance items as well, and they can clog, etc...

    There is an alternative...
    ...wait for it....


    Get a pre-GPF model...Pista would be suitable here :)

    The whole GPF fiasco is being ridiculously forced upon those cars manufactured for the EU market.

    I say ridiculous because it already requires 1,000 miles for a pre-GPF 812 (larger motor) to emit 1 gram of particulate matter and with GPF takes over 10,000 miles...

    The whole particulate matter "problem" was already solved, quite adequately, that's the world Ferrari has to produce for, lowest common denominator...

    If you realize the amount of particulate matter (by weight/volume) emitted by an 812SF it is on the order of 1/1000th of a gram per mile (or 1mg/mile), see page "3 of 4" below, column heading "PM g/mi"

    https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2019/ferrari_pc_a0400098_6d3-6d5_u3-125.pdf

    Euro 6b regulation standard is 4.5mg/mile

    https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Real-world-emissions-measurements-of-a-GDI-vehicle-without-and-with-GPF.pdf

    I'm sure you realize how infinitesimally small that amount is, correct?

    Well, the EU realizes that too, so, the instead opted for counting of the number of particles (i.e. particle number or PN) and they reduced it by a factor of 10 (or by an order of magnitude), that's what they have done (they do not care about the volume of matter any more, just the number of particles!), plus RDE testing must always pass otherwise a 'stop sale' order will be placed on that particular car model throughout all of the EU.

    When realize what they are doing you realize it has nothing to do with your health at this point, please realize that a car stirs up (even an all electric car) more particulate matter just driving down the road than it is emitting...and yes, there have been mentions of putting a "particulate filter" on brakes!!
     
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  17. Shadowfax

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    #42 Shadowfax, May 26, 2020
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    Yes it's a crazy situation and even crazier when you look at the bigger picture with growing populations. Fine particulate matter is a real health problem though - no question about that. The GPF is designed to incinerate the particles which is a good thing healthwise so removing it also has legal ramifications. The whole modification process to bring the car back into yesteryear is most certainly fraught with considerable expense and risk. The ECU will show the changes in values if a VAL is called for and there is no escaping that fact. Ferrari will be able to determine exactly what's been going on and it will be a NO WARRANTY call. Screw around with these things and you are gone if Ferrari is called upon. Even on Pista if you change the cats the values will change and will be stored even though the plug in can clear the CEL. So even with Pista there are limitations with what you can do without kissing your warranty goodbye. The valve controller so far is not registering any change in values but I know if I change my cats for high flow then I run the risk as the values will change. A value analysis done on the stock ECU will show there if there has been minor change to any value even where a CEL is not thrown. So keep that in mind. I've seen some value anaylsis logs with my own eyes and I can assure you they don't miss anything. So these aftermarket boys can say whatever they want. And Pogea racing? Never heard of them.
     
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  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Theory:EU is targeting cars because they want to remove them (EVs will never have sufficient production to replace ICE, raw material sourcing issues and battery production issues).

    Looks at these EU sources of PM2.5 (fine matter that causes health issues), the entire road transport sector is only 16% (this from a 2013 study)

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    https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/emissions-of-primary-particles-and-5/assessment-3

    (link above indicates 'expired', but the overall sources are not significantly varied from 2013)

    For the sake of comparison, most bacteria are at least five microns across. The diameter of a red blood cell is six microns. A strand of hair is around 70 microns wide. You could fit several thousand PM 2.5 particles on a period.
     
  19. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    All this GPF nonsense is why I am on a mad dash to gather as many non-GPF cars as possible. I cannot imagine a world where a GPF equipped car works for my purposes.
     
  20. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    #45 JTSE30, May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
    Just found this chart from USA EPA 2008 Study, and, look at this,
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    ROAD DUST

    is significantly higher contributor to PM2.5 particulate than combustion

    Notice the EU results just merge those into one category (Road Transport), disingenuous on the part of the EU!

    Even if cars emitted ZERO PM from burning fuel, "Road Transport" would still significantly contribute because of tires grinding up and moving dust around!

    Based on the same ratios as the EPA study, if every road vehicle emitted zero combustion related emissions, the EU "Road Transport" would be reduced from 16% to about 11.5%...do you see the point?

    So, please known that the EU picking on emissions to the point of requiring GPF devices is to attack combustion based cars, the previous standards were sufficient.

    And, more on point is the EU's literal attack on "CO2" emissions" (i.e. plant food), and interestingly enough, global CO2 monitors do not yet detect any reductions despite 2 months of nearly worldwide lockdowns significantly reducing CO2 emissions...all a coordinated effort to remove individual freedoms...but that's getting a bit political and that's frowned on in this section so I'll stop there.
     
  21. Shadowfax

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    #46 Shadowfax, May 26, 2020
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
    GPF's aren't going away, and I imagine if they could figure out how to suck all the road dust up and run it through the engine they would be doing that too.

    They have figured that the GPF has value in the sense the fine particulate being emitted from countless vehicles exhausts is no longer adding to the other numerous air borne contaminants.

    Anyway back to topic on F8 solutions. So far all I can see is NO WARRANTY is part and parcel to all of the solutions along with legal ramifications and a lot of time money and effort required. Totally awesome dudes! :cool:

    This all is just making the case for a GTB being so much wiser as none of these issues apply. As it stands you could buy a near new loaded GTB and throw just about every mod in the business at it and still be a long way in front.
     
  22. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks
     
  23. cpiguy

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    I spoke to Capristo and my dealer and apparently their remote exhaust valve kit works perfectly and does not throw a CEL. I have it in writing from Capristo. They claim to have installed several without any issues. My dealer is install8mg it next week.
     
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  24. Dicecal

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    Seems odd that this will work without throwing CELs based on your previous experience with getting the valves pins, hopefully it will work with no issues. You’ll have to be our test case!
     
  25. cpiguy

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    I’ll keep everyone posted.
     

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