Aftermarket option for 360 gearbox heat exchanger? | FerrariChat

Aftermarket option for 360 gearbox heat exchanger?

Discussion in '360/430' started by future328driver, May 19, 2020.

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  1. future328driver

    future328driver Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2001
    1,831
    Dallas, Texas
    Full Name:
    Ken Thomas
    The F1 system heat exchanger on my 360 (MY 2000) failed yesterday. Wondering if there are any robust aftermarket options that anyone has experience with. Is the heat exchanger on the CS and Scud different/more robust than on early model 360s?
     
  2. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    Most of the failures are attributed to corrosion due to lack of coolant service (where the same coolant is used for 10+ years) and lack of regular use of the car.
    If you replace with the OEM version and get your coolant changed every 2-3 years, you should be fine for a long-long time... My 2 cents...
    Considering it lasted 20 years, you could also replace it every ~10-15 years (or every other 2-3 belt services) for extra piece of mind...
     
  3. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    772
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans
    Your heat exchanger lasted 20 years I’d call that a decent part. How bad did it fail? Did you get coolant into the gearbox?
     
  4. future328driver

    future328driver Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2001
    1,831
    Dallas, Texas
    Full Name:
    Ken Thomas
    Fluids where changed regularly and I drive it fairly regularly. Deferred maintenance was not an issue for that list 6 years that I owned the car. Waiting for more details from the dealership to understand what happened, but coolant and gearbox fluid did mix, but don't think any coolant got in the gearbox. Looks like what happened was the F1 fluid got into the coolant system, caused the system to overfill - which explains the smoke that came out of the engine bay. The lack of F1 fluid caused the actuator to lock up. It was at low speed (about 20 mph) as I was downshifting to a stop light, so hoping that there is minimal or no damage to the gearbox.
     
  5. A_Scuderia_F430

    Oct 31, 2012
    37
    SE + DE
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Get the standard OEM heat exchanger, it's good.

    Do regular coolant changes, but for gods sake, use the correct coolant (G48).
    And that means: Do NOT use the F-chat coolant scam Zerex G-05, in time it will kill your engine and exchanger, I don't know who came up with that stupid G05 idea, but that person had one to many beers.
    You got a modern high performance engine, not a smokey and the bandit diesel truck.
     
  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
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    Curt
    Please confirm this story. Not adding up.
     
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  7. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    Yes. Please ask them how the f1 red fluid find its way into the cooling system. I really doubt that.
     
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  8. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    Nov 25, 2017
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    Dustin
    For clarification, you do know that F1 fluid and gearbox fluid are two different things, correct?
     
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  9. future328driver

    future328driver Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2001
    1,831
    Dallas, Texas
    Full Name:
    Ken Thomas
    My mistake in my subsequent post. I meant gearbox oil, not the F1 hydraulic fluid. Not an actuator lock...still investigating what happened in the gearbox itself.

    ADMIN can delete this thread.
     
  10. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    Jul 12, 2013
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    Steve
    Ferrari engines have wet liners, so G05 is the correct one to use because it has nitrites to reduce cylinder liners cavitation. The G48 doesn't have nitrites and they're great for Mercedes, BMW and Porsche engines because their engines do not have wet liners.
     
  11. A_Scuderia_F430

    Oct 31, 2012
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    Michael
    You don't know what you are talkning about. Nitrites has not been used for several decades in Europe and is NOT needed to avoid pitting. Nitrite was replaced decades ago with other addetives. And as I said, this is not a smoke and the bandit truck, old US diesel engines has problems with pittning, modern Ferrari V8s does NOT!
    Ferrari has NOT used a nitrite coolant for 35 years, on any car, and are not doing it today.
    You really need to stop spreading desinformation and get educated on coolants.
    Who the hell would put salt in their engine? You do know what salt does to aluminium?
    I would never buy a Ferrari that ever had G05 in it.
    No one outside the US would put G05 in their Ferraris, or ever heard of such an crazy idea.
    You should do some own research about coolants and don't take advice from people that does not know.
     
  12. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    You probably mistaken nitrite for nitrate, like sodium nitrate?
     
  13. A_Scuderia_F430

    Oct 31, 2012
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    Michael
    No... You should look it up.

    I know this would be an impossible mission, i've seen this G05 on this forum for years, but never commented just because i've seen the attitude people have on this forum, when someone is sharing correct info that people belive is not correct, just because they don't know better and are unwilling to learn.
    The US Ferrari owners has somehow getting in their heads to belive that G05 is the correct and the G48 is just for "normal cars".
    G05 is wrong for Ferraris, it will hurt your engine.
    Ferrari factory and dealers worldwide uses G48 up to F430 and G30 for newer cars, noting else.
    I've talked to my EU dealer and tech about it, they never heard of anyone using G05 in a Ferrari, a couple of years ago I showed them a couple of threads from F-Chat, they just shook their heads.
    You can even use G48 in a diesel enging that has pitting problems, instead of G05! It's that good.

    You should do some research! It's not hard to find info.
    US car makers are today having problems with G05 coolant and aluminium raditators and heads, that get hurt.
     
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  14. shad99

    shad99 Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2013
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    Andy
    Maybe the attached file will help raise the level of understanding
     

    Attached Files:

  15. fotostars

    fotostars Formula Junior

    Feb 6, 2015
    341
    Bay Area
    I looked through this doc. I still don't understand what's good for my 360... It seems like the major difference between G05 and G48 is Nitrite vs. no Nitrite. The goal of Nitrite is to coat the sleeves to protect them from piting? Looks like newer technologies like OAT and HOAT are doing the same but without the need for Nitrite. So I'm still at a loss. Which one should I put in?
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    #16 tazandjan, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    Michael goes a bit overboard on his comments. Afraid I think he is full of it and I would not use G48 in a Ferrari. G48 is formulated for aluminum engines without wet liners. For diesel engine use, G48 needs supplemental coolant additives (SCAs) to protect the wet liners. G05 was just updated to use nitrited hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) compared to the old inorganic acid technology formulation with nitrites. Some modern extended life coolants use organic acid technology (OAT) to prevent cavitation erosion of cylinder liners and these work fine, but coolants with HOAT without nitrites do nothing to inhibit cavitation erosion.

    There is nothing in the literature about G05 causing problems with aluminum blocks and heads. The newer formulation of G05 updates it with more modern additives that last longer. The only problem with the older formulation of G05 was that the additives only lasted about 2 years and the coolant needed to be changed regularly. For those too lazy to do that, ELCs were the answer.

    Note there are many products available in the US, but not in Europe. European manufacturers will also tell you their engines are filled with permanent coolant. This despite the fact no coolant manufacturer states their coolant's additives will last longer than 6 years. What they really mean is the coolant is permanent until the warranty runs out. Ferrari cooling systems have caused problems for decades because there is no coolant change recommended in the maintenance schedule. This has led to holes in cylinder liners, clogged hoses and radiators, related overheating and aluminum corrosion. So manufacturers are not the most reliable source of information on coolants.
     
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  17. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    If you want your heat exchanger to live, change your coolant at least every other year.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
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  18. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
    370
    NC
    #18 tstuli, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
    Do you have documented evidence of liner erosion due to G48 not providing the needed protection (or that the protection is actually needed)? Diesel engines operating at much higher peak cylinder pressures - the exact reasons liner protection is needed.

    Or is this theory all based on some random Ferrari engine that exhibited liner damage? What was it’s coolant change history? Were other causes like manufacturing defects eliminated? How many engines have you seen this on (vs the vast majority of vehicles currently running factory recommended G48s?). I fear you’re reading a single sentence in a datasheet without actually understanding any of the science or engineering that goes behind these decisions.

    I’m sure if G48 was bad for Ferrari engines they’d have realized it themselves by now over the past few decades and recommend something else. I don’t think this is some conspiracy by “big liner” to sell more parts.... Nitrites are known not to be ideal for aluminum part brazings so if I don’t need them, I’m leaving them out!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Why not do some research yourself and give us the answers? We know what works and prevents cavitation corrosion, G05 and ELCs with OATs. If you want to use G48, it is your cooling system. The "vast majority of vehicles" running G48 do not have wet liners.
     
  20. tstuli

    tstuli Formula Junior

    Jun 12, 2018
    370
    NC
    I have, and I’ve shared those findings and research multiple times. My recommendation is..... G48.

    I’m happy to consider alternatives if anyone has evidence to back it up but haven’t seen anything yet other than a line from a datasheet saying how great it is for a 6.7L Cummins Diesel.

    I’m just puzzled why Ferrari is using nothing but nitrite free coolants for the past few decades (G48 in the past and G30 now) if these are death to any wet liner engine?.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    I've been using this for about 8 years now. It check every boxes that Terry mentioned about the benefits of using G05 on a Ferrari. No affiliation, but each to his own.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Everybody has an opinion based on their own research. Mine says G05 or ELC with OAT. Whatever anyone wants to use is up to them. Just change it frequently on a 360 so you can catch a heat exchanger failure. Many of those failures were caused by not changing the coolant at regular intervals early in the Ferrari's life and the corrosion inhibitors taking a hike.

    Hopefully nobody actually believes any of their cars have permanent anti-freeze.
     
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  23. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
  24. hessank

    hessank Formula 3
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    Aug 8, 2005
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    It is made and sold in Canada. I had it installed in my car 6 years ago.
     
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  25. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    the design of the edge is a lil off

    oem has bumped design , which insures no leak, yea?

    and its $895, more expensive than oem?


     

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