Hiding in plane sight..... | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Hiding in plane sight.....

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by tritone, May 1, 2020.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    6,863
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
    "When all else fails" guidance system for the returning astronauts?
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Easily seen from very high altitude for whatever needed it when their avionics were out of whack. Built in the early 1960s and now about 2-3 degrees off from magnetic north due to shifting of the magnetic pole and changing variance from true north.

    Interesting on the last point, too. When I flew out of Cannon AFB NM in the 70s the main runway was 03/21. The magnetic variation changed enough to where it is now 04/22. Short runway changed, too.
     
    Jacob Potts likes this.
  3. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    Maybe that's why the main runway at PBI changed from 09/27 to 10/28?
     
    Jacob Potts likes this.
  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Jim- Affirmative. Magnetic north has been shifting quite a bit lately. The magnetic north pole is moving about 34 nm per year and is well south (~300 nm) of the geographic north pole and currently in the North Sea and moving towards Russia. FAA requires renumbering of runways when their magnetic heading rounds up or down to a different two digit runway number.
     
  5. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    6,863
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
    INTERESTING! Aside from requiring regular tune-ups to your GPS systems, what other dramatic changes might occur if the magnetic north shift continued unabated for xx years? Hope the Russkies cannot claim it and make it of-limits to us......:eek:
     
  6. zygomatic

    zygomatic F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 19, 2008
    4,847
    Washington, DC
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Indeed - it recently happened in Cork (2018). The runway formerly known as 17/35 (since 1961) is now 16/34.

    Cork is now good until 2068.
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Magnetic variation does change with longitude, so you can envision a location that lined up directly with the magnetic pole and the geographic north pole would have no variation from true north.
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    James- The most dramatic change that could occur would be a reversing of the poles with the north pole becoming the south pole magnetically and vice versa. Has happened in the far distant past.
     
  9. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Now I know why I keep hitting the side of my garage instead of going in the middle of the opening like I used to. I guess that I'm going to have to move my driveway a bit. Used to be 0/180, now it'll have to be 01/181.
     
  10. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- Affirmative, very important when you make an IFR approach to your garage, but it will be 01/19.
     
  11. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    In the last year, when I park my car in a parking lot, I'm tending to park crooked unless I then straighten the car out. Maybe that's the cause?o_O
     
  12. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Oh. That would be 10 degrees NbE, I think. The recip. would be 190 degrees SbW, I think. I haven't messed with compass stuff in 70 years. Maybe my compass petunia is a bit off...my wife didn't like my compass rose. Then there is always that variation and oscillation, depending on what night it is. Fridays are usually bad nights for oscillation. Like they say, East is least and West is best and that's why we live here in the PNW at about 350 degrees NbW...or something like that.
     
  13. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- Longitude in Seattle is about -122.33 degrees.
     
  14. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    6,863
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
    But would I even be aware of that? No change in temps right?
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    James- Not sure because the upper atmosphere's ionic layers would be disturbed. How much that affects weather, you would need an expert to answer. My interest has mostly been navigation, especially after typing in latitude, longitude, elevation and magnetic variation every time I aligned an F-111 INS in the pre GPS days. I still remember Cannon AFB as 34 degrees, 23 minutes North and 103 degrees 19 minutes East, and 4295' elevation.
     
  16. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Thanks. My longitude is usually dependent on my wife's attitude. Especially when I am having an azimuth attack and can't breathe too well. Life can sure be confusing some times. I was just looking at how many degrees Seattle was to the left of true north and now you guys tell me that North isn't really true and it is shifting around. No wonder my driveway is crooked. Obvious that politics are involved.
     
    Jacob Potts likes this.
  17. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    :D:D:D
     
  18. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Terry, my mentality is stuck on 75 year old techniques and I hate to admit that I had no idea about the modern operations. Thanks for posting the info re setting the GPS and INS prior to a mission. Things have sure changed and I have great appreciation for what you guys did.
     
    Jacob Potts likes this.
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- I learned how to navigate using a sextant in an aircraft powered by two P&W R2800s, so that makes me an official old fart, too. I was never in a jet trainer before I started flying F-111Ds at Cannon AFB.
     
    Jacob Potts likes this.
  20. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    A twin with R2800's. All that I can think of now is a Convair. Can't remember the designation but I seem to recall that there was a Convair navigation trainer. At Hondo, the biggest trainer that we crewed was a B-34 and it was too fast for the nav cadets. Many nights they were locked in the airplane after a training flight to figure out where they had been. The AT-7's were always littered with white wax discs from the sextants after a training flight. A lot of times there was upchuck that, luckily, they had to clean up. Few realize the massive dedicated effort that went on during the war. Hondo air field is still in operation as a civilian airport and I can still make out the company streets where my barrack was. Same with Langley Field. That's where I was on VE Day.
     
  21. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    T-29.
     
  22. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Jim- Affirmative, T-29C for nav training and T-29D for EWO training. The T-29D had a B-47 radar fitted to the belly that had the most beautiful display. Not matched until digital signal transfer units appeared on the F-111D just before they retired them. No experience with synthetic aperture radars, which cannot see well straight ahead.
     

Share This Page