812 VS Rumors | Page 54 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    You are absolutely right.

    Marcel Massini
     
  2. F140C

    F140C Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2016
    1,574
    Piedmont
    Full Name:
    Marco
    First of all, thank you for the links, it was a very interesting read. I suspected that messing around with these extra filters was going to make a vehicle illegal. However, I think there might be a way to increase/improve the sound, while keeping them in place..not sure how, since I don't know much about this, but hopefully those engineering exhaust systems for a living will find one.
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  3. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    You can bet they will try everything to come up with a solution.
     
    Lagunae92 likes this.
  4. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Another concern regarding GPF devices is the long term issues of maintenance and engine performance.

    As a reference, Diesel Particulate Filters with passive "regeneration" have been widespread in-use for about a decade, and there are issues related specifically to the device that is completely independent of its exhaust aural characteristics, for instance;

    https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/81583

    Paraphrased from the copyrighted document on the downloadable PDF on the link above:


    ...passive regeneration has beneficial pressure effects early in the device life, however, past mid-life continuous passive regeneration results in flow restriction which can end with engine failure

    Additional details found here:

    https://dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php#restriction


    Bottom line, not only is the GPF (closely related to the DPF) guilty of reducing exhaust sound characteristics but it can also be the source of long term engine failure....
     
  5. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    No need to panic; it's essentially the same as with catalytic converters. People were saying the same things back in the day. When and if they fail, you just replace them and the engine won't be at risk. Moreover, diesels emit a much higher number of particulates, thus clogging the filter quicker.
     
  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    "saying about catalytic converters" doesn't really mean it happens..

    however, GPF will accumulate ash, it's what they do (remember, modern Diesel chemistries are quite a bit cleaning burning than before, true enough, depending on where you are in the world (as that matters) the gasoline typically burns cleaner, however, it's not only the fuel, it's the other lubricants that end up going through the exhaust as well such as engine oil...)

    I do not believe anyone will let their car's engine reach a failure point

    but, it does mean the GPF is an additional maintenance requiring device and, for the future, pre-owned cars, for instance, with 20,000 miles, you will want to know if the GPF has been replaced and if not, do it as a matter of course, which, I do not recall being a typical concern regarding catalytic converters..
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  7. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    I agree that it is one more thing to worry about, but it is too early to say if 20,000 miles are a lot.
     
  8. C50

    C50 Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2016
    1,729
    808
    That would be a real kick in the nuts if GPF maintenance or replacement became a standard maintenance item, even worse if retroactively.
    given that I am sure they are being engineered and located without that in mind at present. Not like doing an oil change based on the diagrams I’ve seen of the location of the F8.
     
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  9. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,582
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    It was reported that GPF adds heat. Heat and heat cycling have always accelerated failure.
     
  10. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
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    Cavallo
    If they are like DPF, they use heat to burn off soot during regeneration cycles. Problem with DPF's is that if/when driven mostly in urban areas, regens are incomplete and must occur more often, as it takes good open-road driving for completely effective regen.
     
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  11. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Agree. For a GPF to create ash you need lots of heat and increased back pressure. Does the SF90 use GFP? Hoping its a temporary thing but maybe just another hurtle for ICE to hasten electric only.
     
    Caeruleus11 likes this.
  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Please take a few moments and read through this link:

    https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/passenger-cars/gasoline-particulate-filters/

    And realize that GPFs cause problems to occur that never existed before, a notable one being the engine ECU intentionally leaning out the air/mixture which can cause unwanted engine wear...not to mention additional backpressure due to ash accumulation and incomplete regeneration cycles...none of it is good for a highly strung engine such as those found in Ferraris

    For instance, maybe it will make more sense as to why Porsche intentionally produces non-EU cars without GPF...because they know it is not good for long term ownership ...
     
  14. uhn2000

    uhn2000 Formula 3

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,108
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Hehehe you should it’s my super hot mistress I tell my wife all the time. She hates driving in it with me and I don’t mind the alone time

    Like I have said we gotta give them a chance, I am still optimistic they will give us something to rejoice. Regardless I kind of find the new stuff all little too overtop for my skills and roads. With more time to drive these days I am having some good fun in manual MT cars, older cars (focus), even convertibles (wind in your hair) - something to add to the experience goes a lot way in my book.
     
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  15. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
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    NOT AT ALL the same as catalytic converter. A "catalyst" is something that instigates/accelerates the rate of a chemical reaction, literally converting one chemical to another. In the case of automotive catalysts, they reduce "toxic" emission gases into nontoxic compounds by catalyzing an oxidation/reduction reaction. Oxygen/carbon monoxide (O2/CO) and unburned hydrocarbons (HC) are catalyzed to produce carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2O).

    A particulate filter is an altogether different device that literally filters particulate matter. Like any filter, sooner or later it gets dirty and clogged. In order for a DPF or GPF to be cleaned and prevent clogging, it must burn off accumulated soot through a heat-induced regeneration process. Either that, or if regens are incomplete or not effective enough, particulate filters must be removed and manually cleaned, or sometimes replaced.

    REPEAT: Not at all the same as catalytic converter.
     
  16. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Their operation might be different, but their effect is similar. They both get in the way of the exhaust gases. I get what you are saying and I agree to some extent, but it is just another filter. If you are of a certain age, you will remember that the same discussion occurred about catalytic converters back in the day.
     
  17. maximilien

    maximilien Formula Junior

    Apr 27, 2005
    725
    Capitale of Europe
    Full Name:
    Massimo
    Apart from the gpf someone has information about this 812 vs?
     
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  18. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Indeed I'm of said age and do remember the concerns. And in fact, now that I think about it, owned a late 70's Oldsmobile 4-door sedan with poorly designed early iteration cats that, ironically, clogged to the point the car would not run. Rather than replace them with new (expensive) cats that would likely have only clogged again, we replaced with straight pipes. Drove that car over 260k miles, with straight pipes, with ZERO ISSUES. Conjuring up this memory actually brings up another point: early design iterations of anything, be it cats, DPFs, GPFs, etc almost always inevitably evolve over time, with later iterations being better-performing than early iterations. That was MOST CERTAINLY the case with cats.

    Point being: I personally would not want to own first-iteration GPF vehicle, as its almost certain issues will be discovered as real-world in-field miles accumulate by owners, requiring various tweaking/corrections in later iterations.
     
  19. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2017
    864
    San Diego, CA
    Is the 812 VS going to be pure NA or a hybrid? Does anyone know?
     
  20. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX

    Given that all Ferrari hybrids ever produced are read-mid-engine, and the 812VS would definitely be front-mid-engine, the answer is no.

    To create the most simple hybrid, spinning of the flywheel, would require insertion of an electric motor between the engine and transmission:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    There is literally no where to put such an electric motor.

    And, there is no room for placing electric motors at the front wheels.

    I think I can confidently state the answer is no, the 812VS, if ever produced (which we all believe will be), cannot be hybrid.
     
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  21. ajr550

    ajr550 Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2014
    947
    UK and Caribbean
    Full Name:
    Andrew Roberts
    Turbo ?
     
  22. NeilF8888

    NeilF8888 Formula 3

    Feb 10, 2005
    1,147
    Miami Beach
    I think Ferrari is running out of time to do a a large run of an 812VS. They can barely manage to produce the 499 Monza’s that were spec’ed 18 months ago and they have a large number of 812 spiders to produce through the balance of this year and 2021. By the time VS is announced they’ll be another group of rules to neuter the V12 even more. Maybe the Monza SP is the 812VS?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    When Ferrari made the modern turbo V8 they sharply downsized the block to provide additional space for the turbo charger plumbing.

    So, Ferrari would quite likely require a new block to do turbo, a smaller block, probably around 5.7L, if maintaining the 65degree cylinder banking.

    Because adding turbos would require so much effort and with Michael Leiters (engine chief) publicly proclaiming many times 'no turbo' it seems very unlikely.

    If turbo was added the engine would only be profitable if used in other V12 model production, in that case, hybrid would seem a more likely favored way forward to retaining the V12 engine sounds, but I think that Ferrari would only create a V12 hybrid based on a new block design, maybe even a 90 degree to allow more room in the engine bay.
     
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  24. ajr550

    ajr550 Formula Junior

    Apr 6, 2014
    947
    UK and Caribbean
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    Andrew Roberts

    Tend to agree and hope you are correct that VS unit is neither hybrid nor turbo charged.
    Real question is will VS be used to introduce the type of engine that will be in 812 replacement or will it be one of the final iterations of the existing v12.
     
  25. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Ferrari usually exceeds the required reduction when meeting new rules so they can stretch the production. It will have GPF anyway so plenty of time IMO. They need the money and this car has been anticipated since before they went public.
     

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