430 - F1 Bad Behavior - Help Needed | FerrariChat

430 F1 Bad Behavior - Help Needed

Discussion in '360/430' started by 1949live, Apr 27, 2020.

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  1. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    I have a recently acquired stock 2007 F1 F430. I added the Scud Ing F1 smart relay (simple one without the controls) and a new battery. Took her out past weekend on the highway (after warmup) and when shifting to 5th gear the gear did not engage, the engine speed dropped to idle (still had my foot on the pedal), and the Slow Down light came on. Couldn't get any gear to engage, so dove for the shoulder. Didn't notice any other warning lights, but to be honest I was more focused on trying to get a coasting car to the shoulder so its possible I missed one. I let it idle for a minute, engaged first gear, and it seemed OK. But as soon as I tried to shift into 5th same thing happened. Limped home in 4th or lower.

    I will get the car to my mechanic - Bill at Maranello who is great - but I would appreciate some input from those here who are much more knowledgeable as to likely issue. After searching the various threads here, seems to me most likely the F1 pump or the E-Diff solenoid. Opinions? Much appreciated.
     
  2. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    I struggled with a similar problem for approximately a year, trying various low-cost remedies between times when I could actually get on our indie mechanics schedule. At the end of the day, it was 2 loose F1 actuator bleed screws that seemed to be causing the problem. Fortunately, I did not waste money on a replacement pump, which is the first inclination with others experiencing shifting issues. We thought we had pretty solid data pointing to a troubling leak rate on the ediff solenoid, but while the new solenoid reduced the leak rate to an acceptable level, the shifting problem continued to rear it's head intermittently.

    If you search the forums, you'll find others that had similar experiences with the bleed screws on the 430s. That may not be your problem, but it's certainly the least expensive starting point and as our indie learned, the bleed screws are easier to get to than he originally thought (he addressed the loose screws & did a thorough flush in one afternoon).

    I'll also say that I feel the reporting module for the Scud Ing relay is a worthwhile investment. Initially, the beeping alerts were annoying and since I wasn't experiencing any problems, I tended to just ignore the alerts. After maybe a half year, the first shifting incident occurred and while initially very infrequent, gradually started occurring more frequently as did the alerts from the relay module. I am inclined to believe that the initial alerts from reporting module were accurately predicting a problem with pump run duration most likely due to air entrainment in the hydraulic system due to the loose bleed screws. After the loose screw issue was addressed, the reporting from the relay module dropped off considerably where none of the other repairs had any effect previously.
     
  3. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Thanks much for the extensive data. I certainly will cover this with my mechanic. Hopefully others will also add some info.
     
  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,753
    good thread - now the question is how to i remember it if/when it happens to my car!
     
  5. Michael Parks

    Michael Parks Rookie

    Aug 23, 2018
    13
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Michael Parks
    If it consistently happens when shifting into 5th gear, then your issue may be different than mine. One of two things would happen when my "SLOW DOWN" light would come on - (1) if the car wasn't moving (e.g. stop light), it would shift into neutral, display the yellow "SLOW DOWN" light, and not give any audible notification it had shifted into neutral (Why Ferrari thought the car should beep like a backhoe when I press the button to engage reverse but shouldn't beep when the car decides to place itself in neutral when I'm stopped, potentially on a hill, is a mystery to me. It's more than a little frustrating when you try to move forward only to start rolling backwards down a hill while your car revs in neutral - and then you see the "SLOW DOWN" light.) and (2) if the car was moving, it wouldn't let me upshift past 3rd gear after engaging 2nd gear if I remember correctly.

    My mechanic started by checking the F1 bleed screws as the other poster mentioned. We then replaced the accumulator that needed replacing but that still didn't resolve the problem. We then replaced the eDiff solenoid and that resolved the issue. It basically came down to an internal leak where the F1 system couldn't hold the needed pressure to change gears. Again, mine wasn't specific to any gear so your issue may be different. I agree with the other poster that the bleed screws are the easiest and cheapest thing to check first.
     
  6. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    When you swapped batteries did you follow the relearn process? Also check your f1 fluid level. Even a couple mm low can cause weird issues. If you get it to Ferrari get them to run a relearn, unless your leak rate is too high. Also do you know what % your clutch is at? These cars do weird stuff when the clutch gets low
     
  7. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Yes, I did very carefully follow the relearn process after the battery swap. Good suggestion on checking the F1 level - what type of oil is required for that? The shop manual spec's Shell Donax TX which I have no idea what it is - I assume there is some more modern replacement. The clutch % was checked by Ferrari and was noted as 25%, and the PIS was set up just a few months ago when I acquired the car. Thanks.
     
  8. hwyman

    hwyman Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2015
    329
    Canada / Los Angeles
    Honestly the F1 fluid you'd have to ask Ferrari... I know on my Murci it was Tutella or something like that. My 430 shifted from 4th to N when cold then up to 6th then back to N and adding a tiny bit of fluid cured it... not saying its the issue but start on the simplest things first. Hate to say it but most E-Gear, F1 systems start to get wonky around the 20-25% clutch mark. The slowdown light is whats throwing me off. Not sure if it has the same crap cat ECUs as the 355,360. Would be good to know what triggered that episode. Could be thermocouple or CAT ecu, even something like a dying ignition coil …. if you have an IR thermometer you could try reading the temp on your cats to see if one side is hotter. I dumped the 430 after my F1 issues so Im no pro with the 430's. Spent a ton on my low mileage Murci sorting e-gear... eventually got it perfect but it was a ton of $$$ and headache.. didn't want to start over with the 430
     
  9. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Checked the F1 fluid - was right where it needs to be and looks clean. Only anomaly I noticed is most folks here indicate that the F1 pump pre-charge when the driver's door opens is about 10 seconds for a good system. Mine only runs for five. Any thoughts on this?
     
  10. Michael Parks

    Michael Parks Rookie

    Aug 23, 2018
    13
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Michael Parks
    Mine is less than 5 seconds. 10 seconds seems very long. Generally speaking, the stronger the pump, the shorter the time.
     
  11. Flea7

    Flea7 Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 25, 2010
    1,897
    PNW
    Full Name:
    SKIM
    Mine runs for about 5 sec when I open the door. When inserting my key for ignition and I wait for an OK light, it runs a little longer. I think 10 sec for opening the door is too long.
    FYI, I use Redline D4 for F1 fluid and I have an upgraded Juri pump motor installed along with a 50amp fuse
     
  12. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,561
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    Look at the color of what's in there now ..it may have been repalced with a different fluid ..if red then any dexron III compatible works ..using a sync ATF dexron III would be fine

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  13. PKIM

    PKIM Karting

    Jan 1, 2004
    197
    Redlands
    Full Name:
    Paul
  14. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,827
    Isle of man- uk
    You should have 18 mm in the tank with the system up to pressure, a 6 foot flexable tape is ideal to dip the level
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Paul- That is what Stef (F1 Smart Relay) recommends. Petronas Tutela CS Speed works well, too, and was recommended on F1 systems when it was a Fiat product. Much more expensive in the US, though.
     
    PKIM likes this.
  16. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,561
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    I think as you mentioned before ..it is better but try not to mix with others in there ..better to do a total flush and replace

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  17. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Checked the F1 oil level - was spot on. My car is now at my mechanic - fortunately when I brought it up it would reliably do the same 5th gear issue so he was able to replicate as well. I'll update the group as soon as he decides what needs work and when it gets fixed. Thanks to all.
     
    Flea7 likes this.
  18. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,827
    Isle of man- uk
    The shorter time is a good pump
    If u go down the fluid flush route, be sure you get someone who knows how to do it. Its not your local garage job unless you want more problems
     
  19. 1949live

    1949live Karting

    Sep 18, 2014
    111
    Denver, Colorado
    Full Name:
    David
    Just getting my car back from the shop, and wanted to update the posters on the issues found. They were the typical F1 issues: loose actuator bleed screws, along with a dying E-Diff solenoid. Both issues addressed and the car now runs fine. Just an FYI, though nothing unexpected. Thanks to all for their comments.
     
  20. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    I had a similar issue with the SCUD ING relay...
    It worked fine and then it gave an error; put in the stock relay back and everything was fine. Worked great for another 4 months then got the dreaded F1 light on. I think the Scud Ing relay is a super smart solution but unfortunately it is also sensitive to leaks/suboptimal function of rest of F1 system. So I think you should try to put your stock relay back on and maybe have someone do a diagsnotic look at your F1 system. By the way, I also ordered the Scud Ing relay for my 2009 Maserati Gran Turismo S and it did same thing after a week, forcing me to put the stock relay back on without any further issues..
     
  21. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,561
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    #21 flash32, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    Isn't that the intent of the relay ? To give you a heads up if something is going wrong so you can address the issue and avoid other broken parts caused by the original problem ..like loose screws on actuator causing pump to cycle too much and possibly burn out


    Unless I missed the part that the relay stops working when it detects an error and you are saying once you get the warning change back to old relay to get it running to the shop ?


    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  22. catdog

    catdog Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2010
    250
    Yes you are right, no complaint about scud Ing. Smart design and gives you warning. It just may be over sensitive when it strands you in the middle of nowhere.:::
     
  23. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2008
    5,561
    Central NJ
    Full Name:
    Dominick
    I did not realize it stops working when it senses an error ...

    Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
     
  24. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    If you study various posts for F1 shifting issues, it's apparent that shifting failures are almost always intermittent, but get progressively worse as the problem continues. I think the likelihood of any F1 shifting issue actually being caused by the Scud Ing relay would be extremely rare.

    Personally, I would think of the alerts from the relay module as an early warning system - I ignored those alerts until shifting issues started surfacing and eventually discovered the actuator bleed screws were loose.
     
    flash32 likes this.
  25. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    476
    Sweden
    Also removed my Scud Ing relay. It kept beeping every time the pump ran. No errors, just beeping. Stock relay now and no issues at all.
     

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