FF PTU Design Flaw. | Page 18 | FerrariChat

FF PTU Design Flaw.

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso' started by officeline, Aug 17, 2019.

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  1. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    I should also add, the 8-10k GBP price is a fitted price if the car is here, with VAT. I'd have to ask regarding a rebuild of a PTU sent to us.
     
    Outrun likes this.
  2. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula 3

    Jul 1, 2015
    1,126
    The Netherlands
    Thank you so much Chris. This is really useful information and ties in with what we’ve heard about other PTU failures - namely the mixing of engine oil and PTU transmission fluid.

    I’m based in Holland and have access to one of the best independents in mainland Europe but even so - I’d be happy to ship the car to you if I find myself on the end of a PTU failure.

    thanks again for sharing so willingly.
     
    ChrisKing likes this.
  3. Outrun

    Outrun Karting

    Nice work Chris, I know which specialist you are. For those that have the issue, I wouldn't hesitate to send my car to them. I'll be extending my warranty in September unless the price changes too dramatically but given the repair cost in now far less ridiculous, I may think twice if Ferrari price the extension out of the market.

    Luckily my car is highly unlikely to break while I can't use it!! Damn this lockdown! :)

    Stay safe y'all.
     
    ChrisKing likes this.
  4. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    Engine oil contamination is a new one on me - I can only assume if someone has had this issue, that would be caused by the front main oil seal. We do have one to hand whilst the PTU is out, but I've yet to see one leak. The only one I've seen leak is due to previous replacement by a main dealer that had previously had PTU replacement.
     
  5. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    I may as well mention who we are - if there are any issues regarding this with admin, please feel free to contact me.

    www.simonfurlonger.co.uk

    There is an article in Auto Italia magazine coming out soon regarding the FF, and we've a small part in there as we were asked our opinion on them. I've confirmed that the cost of a PTU repair is £8000, inclusive of VAT.

    I hope this helps out UK owners, and people further afield.
     
    R J, Bamsefar, otakki and 2 others like this.
  6. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula 3

    Jul 1, 2015
    1,126
    The Netherlands
    Thanks for the clarification Chris. It’s possible that earlier reports have confused gear oil, hydraulic fluids and engine oil.

    But I do recall at least one poster claiming that the PTU/engine interface is a stupid design as there is only a crankshaft seal separating the two given the direct mount nature of the PTU and that this is the Achilles heel of the PTU. Reports From owners also suggest that PTUs get topped up with hydraulic fluid which then disappears - the presumption I guess is that it drains into the engine crank case.
     
  7. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    There is 2 crank seals on these IIRC, one to prevent gear oil going to the engine, and one to stop engine oil going to the PTU. If anything I'd expect to see engine oil in a PTU, the PTU does have an internal oil pump, but I doubt its under lots of pressure.

    The hydraulic oil tends to flow into the gear oil of the PTU. I'll post up some internal pictures of a PTU when i'm back in the workshop Tuesday - I'm off to consume my body weight in chocolate eggs now!
     
    Bundy, Statler, Caeruleus11 and 3 others like this.
  8. otakki

    otakki Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2016
    1,623
    If the PTU fails due to reasons mentioned, will it lead to engine failure/damage if driven further? Or can it still be carefully driven to a repair shop in limp mode?
     
  9. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    I’ve not seen one driven to destruction yet. The drive cog between the crank and PTU is quite thin - I’d imagine that would snap before anything else if the PTU seizes.
     
    otakki likes this.
  10. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    The area circled in red is where hydraulic fluid passes through, and actuators control these shift forks. The brass area highlighted in blue holds the seals that fail. These are the ones we’ve had reproduced.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    otakki, Jaguar36, R J and 5 others like this.
  11. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula 3

    Jul 1, 2015
    1,126
    The Netherlands
    thank you for the informative photos and description of the problem and fix. May I ask - do you reproduce the seals exactly as per the OEM seals or do you design them differently (shape and material)? I’m wondering if there is a design flaw in the OEM seals or if they will simply wear out regardless of what you make them from or how you design them?

    Either way, it seem that the FF and Lusso community finally has an answer to the mystery of PTU failure about which Ferrari has been so secretive. And we also seem to have an effective and documented repair which is on par with DCT repair cost wise.
     
  12. FFantastic

    FFantastic Formula Junior

    Mar 23, 2015
    857
    UK Riviera
    Very gratifying to know there is a solution to an inherent albeit rare problem.
    There was a serious risk that the FF and Lusso could become post warranty pariahs but now we can relax. Well done and thank you ChrisKing.
     
    SAFE4NOW likes this.
  13. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    ANOpax - I don’t think there is any way to redesign them, they aren’t too big. You could potentially carry out some machining to get a different style seal in there, but it’s a big job to keep removing and refitting the PTU to test it.

    I can’t take all the credit, a lot of it must go to the company who took on the making of the seals from scratch, and at a reasonable quantity. Some companies would only supply a minimum of 1,000!
     
    Natkingcolebasket69 likes this.
  14. CrazyMD

    CrazyMD Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    403
    Southern California
    Very informative thread for all of us who have these cars. Any chance we can just purchase the seals and have our local guys do the repair?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    otakki likes this.
  15. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    I’d have to check on that, sadly that’s not a call for me to make. If we did, I doubt we could warrant them.
     
  16. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,348
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    That would be great if owners could purchase the seals. I'm sure no one would expect you to warrant them, and no one could blame you.

    Thanks for those very informative posts!
     
  17. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    523
    What differs thoose seals from the original ones? Thicker, wider, different materials?
     
  18. ChrisKing

    ChrisKing Karting

    Dec 29, 2016
    52
    UK
    There is no wiggle room to allow for a larger seal. The material is assured of being more robust than the original seals - we're obviously taking the advice of the company we used to make the seals, they are the experts in this area after all!

    One other thing I forgot to mention, is that I've seen two different colour seals when replacing them - the first PTU had green seals, whereas the other two had white seals. Perhaps a factory super-session at Carraro, who make the PTU? I have tried contacting Carraro for more information on this, but as usual, Ferrari keep everyone involved quiet!
     
    otakki, ANOpax and Bamsefar like this.
  19. CrazyMD

    CrazyMD Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2012
    403
    Southern California
    Whether green or white it seems like both colors have failed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. otakki

    otakki Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2016
    1,623
    Indeed, failure seems to continue even on newly produced cars. Out of curiosity, which color is the later version?
     
  21. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,772
  22. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,772
  23. Bamsefar

    Bamsefar Formula Junior

    Nov 26, 2012
    523
    That one is new to me at least - and what is that Assembly 102275? Is that some sort of serial number for production of Ferrari cars or? Where do I find that number?

    Because if that is correct, then why is GTC4Lusso V12s PTUs failing ?
     
  24. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,772
    The car is on bringatrailer.com right now with pics i posted if anyone cares to read them.


    Sent from my iPhone using MotorInteractive
     

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