550 Maranello: Exhaust ideas | Page 9 | FerrariChat

550 Maranello: Exhaust ideas

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by mbyormark, Aug 8, 2018.

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  1. DZ-96

    DZ-96 Formula 3
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    Mar 7, 2010
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    Erik

    Send me you mobil phone nr with WhatsApp or your email address and I send some more files.

    Daniel
     
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  2. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    Hi Daniel. :) I send you a personal message on monday. Did you get it? Would be Nice to get some more impressions from you after your «test year».

    All the best. Erik
     
  3. F612

    F612 Formula Junior

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  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
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    Early Tubis and straight pipes will definitely let somebody, make that everybody, know you are arriving.
     
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  5. Konadog06

    Konadog06 Formula Junior
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    Aug 22, 2007
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    Factory straight pipes are not inexpensive if still available. A deal for someone...
    Bill
    FL
     
  6. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    I took off my new Fuchs rear mufflers today and tried to get the Quicksilver X-pipe off from the Hyperflow cats. Let me tell you: These parts are so unprecise made, it hurts to look at it. Now I understand why Ferrari in Modena charged me for ten houres to make it fit.... The shape is so bad that the connecting pipes were actually rubbing against the gearbox. Yes, the workshop have forced it on. I now start to understand why I have a noise from the rear of the car. And now I need a hydraulic jack to get the X-pipe from the cats. It is beyond bad. I haven’t realized it before now when I had a look at it. The reason is the two cat pipes are not at all parallell. I will put the original center muffler back on later this week and put the Fuchs valved mufflers back on. And also have a look inside the cats and see if they are ok.

    Keep your experiences coming. Very interesting.

    Erik
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  7. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Very interesting...all the more reason to get a set of fabio's superb fitment instead! ;)
     
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  8. cgt000

    cgt000 Formula Junior
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    I have a Tubi on my 550 and can barely hear the exhaust. I have a 612 oto with factory sport exhaust and the thing is so loud. What gives? Always thought Tubi would be so much louder!
     
  9. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    CGT- World of difference between 2nd gen Tubis and the center muffler/cork and a 1st gen set with straight pipes.
     
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  10. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
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    My 575 goes in next week so we can plan the new valved exhaust layout and order materials. Going to run full titanium from the cats back.
     
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  11. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
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    Hi Terry. You mention the «cork» in the center muffler. If you see inside the original mufflers or even HGTC mufflers, you will notice a whole labyrint of blockings for the exhaust. So I doubt that the cork have anything to say for the performance of the car. Not easy to understand why they made it like that, but it would probably not hurt the performance of the engine. It must be there for a reason. Ferrari/Zeuna Starker know how to weld a pipe to a muffler. They did not do it like that for no reason. The total of restrictions makes the back pressure. No backpressure is not better. That is the way I see it. I will put mine back on and I have no worries doing it.
     
  12. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Mar 5, 2007
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    PacNW
    This sounds like an amazing project. Who is doing the work and which valved mufflers will you use?
     
  13. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Erik- There are all kinds of crimps and other obstructions to flow in the old resonators. One reason the factory went to straight pipes in October 2003. The rear mufflers are designed to quiet the exhaust with baffles and drilled pipes and provide a dual flow path. No need to slow the flow before it gets there. Get Fabio's H pipe if you want the best of both worlds. The small balance tubes do not restrict flow much, but do kill resonance.
     
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  14. white out

    white out Formula 3

    Mar 3, 2010
    1,228
    I have a good friend do all the fabrication for my company.

    Not going to use a valved muffler, but muffler and a valve. Likely going to use Ticon Ti mufflers & valves and change the valves to default open. But might do a muffler delete with valves to create anti-drone tubes which will double as mufflers. This works really well on the 458 DTP exhaust, with valves closed it sounds OEM+ outside and OEM inside, valves open it screams. We shall see what works best for the 575.

    Here are some pics of his work.

    458 DTP exhaust (stainless):
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    Last week he made a Ti LP640 DTP exhaust for a client. It's not cost effective, at all, but we use pie cuts for Ti bends as they are quite strong and look fantastic, especially after a few heat cycles. 12 hours of fabrication here.
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  15. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Erik, Terry is referring to the crimps at the outlet side of the center resonator as one of the sources of obstruction...


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    When straight pipes replace the center resonator, sufficient back pressure for lower RPM power management via the variable length intake manifolds is still provided by the valved mufflers.
     
  16. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Very cool, I have not seen a setup like that before, but I am very interested in hearing what it sounds like on a 575.
     
  17. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

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    I know about this. The way I think is that the backpressure is a total of al the parts that breaks the flow of exhaust. That means:

    1) the collector
    2) the catalyzer
    3) the mentioned «cork» of the center resonator
    4) the rear mufflers (which are very restrictive).

    If this cork is so bad, why are the cars running about just as fast with all the restritors (2-4)? The thing is that the cars like some back pressure for low end torque and that is where you normally drive. Someone need to measure the backpressure on a factory standard car while on a dyno and then the same with a more free flowing exhaust without 3 and 4. If you only change the center resonator to do away with the corks, and still run the rear mufflers, I have a hard time believing there will be any loss of power at all, since most of the restriction is in the rear mufflers. That said, the reduction in power from using the original rear mufflers would be only at ful throttle during the last 2.000 rpm from 5.500 to 7.500. And with open valves all the time, or by adding straight through rear mufflers, an actual loss in power at idle and low rpm. might occure. The press kit clearly explain that the car both have variable exhaust pressure by the valved exhaust and two sets of intake ducts for high/low engine speed.

    Even Harry on Harry’s Garage on YouTube mention that the 550 seems to be a bit lazy at low rpms. with sport rear sileners. I have felt the same way on my car and especially on a lower horsepower car. I remember my mother’s car had a big hole from rust in the exhaust at the middle of the pipes on a 1,6 liter car giving it more free flow, and that engine pulled terrible at low rpms. You really lost lots of horses. That’s why I believe Ferrari did it right and my car ran very strong too with all original exhaust. 325 on the speedo easily.
     
  18. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Erik- Whatever you like. Frankly I am not too concerned about low end torque from a 5+ liter V12 with valved exhaust. Any time you slow the flow you lose horsepower, which is why race cars have open exhausts.

    If there was a reason for all the restrictions in the center pipes besides the resonators themselves, I might agree. I think it is just the result of lowest bidder for that piece. Ferrari somehow wanted the V12 to sound more like a Jaguar V12 than a Ferrari V12. They got over that.
     
  19. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    Love your new avatar, Terry. You devil you! :D
     
  20. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    #220 308 GTB, Apr 7, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020

    Erik, like Terry said, Ferrari went to straight center pipes after initially putting the same center resonators on the early 575Ms. Perhaps they needed to use up their inventory of 550 center resonators.

    I remember someone dissecting a 550 center resonator and finding a duct connecting the two sides. It was essentially an "H-pipe." Going to straight center pipes was a complete departure from the original exhaust design.

    550s benefited from X-pipes and there was further benefit with straight pipes. People like Stephen S (stephens) did the trials twelve years ago and published the results with before and after dyno runs. He wasn't chasing sound but rather performance. In this thread, I took a lesson from him and abandoned the X-pipes I had fabricated for me (they didn't fit correctly anyway) and had straight pipes fabricated for my 550: question about 550 x-pipe exhaust mods
     
  21. NE550

    NE550 Formula Junior

    Mar 23, 2017
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    Jason Fenske and his Engineering Explained YouTube videos are always informative and enjoyable. He did this one in 2017 titled "Stop Saying Car Exhausts Need Back Pressure." Great explanation of how exhaust flow works. Or should work.
     
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  22. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

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    #222 F456M, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020

    It is quite interesting. Thanks for sharing. The essence of this video is that the right scavenging is what you are looking for. And scavenging at the right rpm. level... How can one know that without analyzing the complete engine and making all kinds of tests? What seems most logic is that the car should be tuned for best performance at low and mid rpm. range, but Ferraris are probably tuned for high rpms. for maximum performance and speed? I guess the exhaust valves alter the effect of the scavenging too? But in what way?

    (Trying to figure out this...) :)
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #223 tazandjan, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    Scavenging is why Fabio's 6-1 headers work so well. The evenly spaced exhaust pulses, of what are essentially two straight sixes on the same crank, pull all the exhaust gasses out of the combustion chambers very efficiently. That is also why flat crank V8s work so well for power, even if there are some secondary imbalances introduced. They are effectively two 4 cylinder engines on the same crank, so again scavenging is excellent. 90 degree crank V8s are effectively 4 V-twins on the same crank, so bundle of snakes or crossover pipes for two sided exhausts are needed to get optimum scavenging. No secondary imbalances, though.
     
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  24. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

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    Thanks. I will remember that I have four V-twins when I drive my Chevrolet :)
     
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  25. ixlr8

    ixlr8 Formula Junior

    Aug 24, 2015
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    I keep thinking about getting Fabio's headers, but I wonder how much of a job is it to install them. Can it be done with engine in? How much of the rest of the exhaust needs to come out, if any? Is this a 4 hr job or a 10 hr job or ? Thanks.
     

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