Distributor Advance Rebuild | FerrariChat

Distributor Advance Rebuild

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by SouthJersey400i, Jan 7, 2020.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    I have two recent threads about doing the New England 1000 after doing a quickie "fix" to my distributor advance and another thread about fitting the only available distributor caps.

    While changing distributor cap it was clear that my advance mechanism was not all it should be; it seem to have two positions and nothing in between. It was very sluggish to move in any case. Note that this distributor was rebuilt by a shop in 2014 and car did maybe 14,000 miles since.

    So out came the distributor. I learned during the NE 1000 event that a good friend of mine now actually rebuilds and sets up Marelli distributors. His name is David North and he lives in North Jersey and has been active with FCA for many years. He has a 1984 400i 5-speed with 180,000+ miles! He takes it to a lot of long distance events. I contacted him just before Christmas and other than a few days of commitments he said he could turn the rebuild around in under a week.

    Here are some before and after pics and a list of the work he did. Note Dave has two 'old school' Sun Distributor machines.

    Before pics:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Note the distorted plastic bushes above.

    During Rebuild:
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Note the replacement "bronze" (?) bushes above.

    Final Assembly: (not much to see so I left out the assembly pics.

    Here is a list of the work Dave performed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Cost of work including shipping + $512.

    I think the new metal advance guides and the lubrication pad are likely the most important item for the longevity of smooth timing advance.

    Dave provided a before and after advance curve showing how poorly mine was operating (but car running okay). Note: the RPM and advance numbers are distributor numbers; both numbers are double for the crankshaft. (I think the file is attached but I did not embed in document.) I converted the final numbers to crank RPM to use while doing timing adjustment in the car.

    As part of this project I invested in a new timing light; my previous one ended in the boat bilge and it got flooded! New one is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVYGV4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I am very happy with it as you can read RPM and advance on same screen on back of the 'gun'.

    Once installed in car it was easy to set timing. Dave kept my paint marks in tact, so the initial advance was about 5 deg versus 8 deg target at 800 rpm idle. Te first thing I noticed was the quick response of the advance to changes in throttle both up and down. I noticed that the advance seem to run a bit below the target degrees vs RPM but that is mostly due to me laying on my back and wife adjusting throttle from above! I set the idle advance at 9 degrees. Motor is running smooth but have not done a road test yet.

    Here is how to reach Dave and please tell him that I was his referral.
    David North <[email protected]>
     

    Attached Files:

  2. james.colangelo

    james.colangelo Karting

    Jan 28, 2008
    215
    Detroit, MI USA
    Full Name:
    James Colangelo
    Great post and information thank you for sharing!
     
  3. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    This is probably a dumb question but how do you set the timing? I mean I know how to set the timing on a normal car where you point the light down at the crank pulley and then reach over to the distributor and tweek it and then tighten up the hold down.
    How in the world do you do this when the timing marks are on the bottom of the engine and the distributor is hidden under the cowl?
     
  4. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    How to do the timing? I call it "the up down, up down"! You check timing below, clamber up to the distributor, probably on a stool, guess an adjustment and crawl back down and see how good your guess was. Two people make it a whole lot easier. To check the advance at higher RPM requires a second person sitting in the car to raise the RPM at some pre-agreed levels (it will be too loud to talk).. Before checking advance you do the idle setting. Checking the advance at higher RPM is only confirmation your advance mechanism is working correctly or not; there is no way to adjust that in the car. This is one of the great pleasures of owning a 400 series car. You lay on the floor with car on jack stands or on a lift, with two sizzling hot exhausts on either side of you and your co-worker (wife) is running the motor up to 5000 RPM!
     
    Ak Jim likes this.
  5. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Have you had a chance to drive it yet?
     
  6. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    No, I am in the middle of my annual winter R&R. Car is on lift now checking all suspension, brakes, some fluid updates, etc. I am moving right along and not had any negative surprises. It should be on the road late Feb, weather permitting. (In spite of my FChat "handle" I now live in the Finger Lakes.
    Ken
     
  7. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 23, 2007
    8,451
    North Pole AK
    Let us know how it runs. This is on my to do list. Also they can make it so one distributor controls the spark and therefore the advance for both sides of the engine.
     
  8. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    FINALLY on the road again. I planned to finish my winter R&R in early March and then have back surgery. Surgery window opened in late Jan so work got pushed back by surgery plus rehab. I had two rear suspension bushes to replace and that required my back to be stable, but I'm sure my surgeon would not have enjoyed watching b me do the tasks!

    Once the car was off my lift, it fired right up. After a short warmup I went for a few mile ride. I specifically ran the revs from low end up to 4500+ a few times. Power was smooth and there were no gaps, misses or flat spots anywhere along the way. Last year the motor always seemed to have flat spots at bottom end and over 3500 RPM; it left me running in between RPMs.

    Conclusion: Dave North's distributor rebuilds and setup are very good and certainly worth the cost.
    Here is how to reach Dave and please tell him that I was his referral.
    David North <[email protected]>

    Ken
     
    Ak Jim likes this.
  9. miami355

    miami355 Karting

    Sep 2, 2006
    136
    Miami, FL
    Resurrecting an old thread, I just reached out to Dave the distributor guy. Hopefully his info is still the same.
     
  10. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    For half the price of a rebuild one can source a sun distributor tester together with led upgrade, magneti marelli holder and magnetic pickup management.

    As a bonus you get countless of fun hours adjusting the distributor :)
     
  11. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    Dave is still there.
     
  12. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    Around these parts a Sun Distributor tester can cost anywhere from $500 (needing repair) to $2K to $3K+ (restored) USD:

    http://paramountd.com/sale.html

    The LED upgrade to replace the old Sun Strobe is about $100 and the Marelli Adapters range from $150 to $325 USD:

    http://paramountd.com/sale.html

    Consequently, I think your comment about acquiring all the gear necessary for $256 or so (1/2 the price indicated rebuild price of $512) seems highly inaccurate.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
    christc and Rifledriver like this.
  13. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Last time we looked at marelliservice, the price per unit was €650 per unit. The troublesome distributors are the "twin" ones, so that's twice as much on a 365/400.

    To be honest I decided to bit the bullet when my mechanics told me he could not fix distributors any-more. I bought my sun in 2020 for €300 (here in France they are all looking for tester made by Souriau, Sun are not sought after). Mark Saunders (ParamountD) made me a deal on the "expensive" Magneti Marelly adapter, as he had not any-more the cheap variant, and the big/expensive one was missing the drive shaft (easy to do on a lathe).


    To tell the truth I later replaced the chuck, roll pin, belts, and installed an upgraded transformer. This plus the original documentation together with a copy of the service manual and the schematics. So it made the bill a bit more expensive, and I still have a tatty looking tester, but most of the internals are now new and I am far from the $3K of a fully restored tester. To be frank it's a tool, who need glossy paint on his tools?



    So I would consider this is money well spent, and anyone who has several vintage cars should really consider buying one, even if the paint is totally scrapped (as on mine).


    By the way I add a great service from ParamountD: my so-so transformer caused many problems with the LED module, Mark put me directly in touch with the designer of the module so as to walk me through the diagnostic. So if you buy a Sun, you know that someone can provide you with the parts and advices required to keep it running.
     
  14. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,160
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Raemin,

    I would say you did well, but this is not what you said earlier:

    Given your follow up post, your equipment cost was:

    - Souriau: €300
    - Parts: $522 USD ($237 + $285)
    - + time/effort to source, repair, and upgrade your machine

    So your cost was well about 1/2 the service price indicated earlier ($512 USD). That said, having a machine does not automatically fix/service a distributor. One has to know how to use the machine along with using it in relation to the target ignition distributor. On top of this some of the later distributors have magnetic/electronic pickups/sensors which require an adapter to be used with the Sun machines (unknown if this is the case for Souriau machine). Outside of all of this, some of the internal parts may require replacement because of age, wear, or adjustment and so a novice user may not know or have access to these various bits. Consequently, for most it may make far better sense to send off a distributor to those that have the right equipment, parts, and knowledge to properly sort it out. This all depends on the individual, their skill set, and whether they want to jump in and learn all there is not know about this. Some simply want to get their distributors serviced, install, and continue with other items on their car.

    With that said, I tend to be similar to yourself and like to "jump" in and invest the time/effort into such maintenance tasks, but this is not for everyone. Also, the price you paid for your machine is excellent price even if it is not a "Sun" brand. Here in North America, Sun is certainly desired and so the market price tends to reflect that. Many of the old Sun machines were left to rot and so many need a lot of time/effort to make them usable or to restore them. I was lucky enough to buy an excellent Sun machine with its original bits and cabinet for about $700. The unit came from a service fleet garage and they were simply clearing it out, as it was collecting dust for a very long time. Even so, mine still needs some work, as the flash tube is weak, etc and so at a minimum a LED replacement will be done.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  15. raemin

    raemin Formula 3

    Jan 16, 2007
    1,825
    Lyon (FR)
    Full Name:
    R. Emin
    Mine is a Sun (see the photo), as said cheaper than the "Souriau".

    Mine was painted in French and converted to 220v from the Factory which makes it less appealing to your guys, but a real deal to me!

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    As a side note, my predecessor initially replaced the flash tube with russian tubes. It did work but LED are easier to read. As the the transformer died on me after a few hours of use, I just trashed all the internal in favour of the LED kit. You can PM me for the left over tubes I have...

    The Ferrari reluctor distributor is far less troublesome than other I've been dealing with: the cam on the axle were within spec (even brand new distributors for the Renault Alpine are totally off), no points, no hard to source condenser, no vacuum, and the overall build quality is excellent. As long as they are properly lube, they keep going for ages.

    The Ferrari twin distributors with two sets of points are another story! They look the same on the outside, but tons of parts internally. And every time the points are changed, you should retest the units on a tester, so you'd be better of buying the tool.
     
    samsaprunoff likes this.
  16. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
    1,591
    Romulus, NY (Finger Lakes)
    Full Name:
    Ken Battle
    My bill from Dave North was $512. New bearings, seal, clean,lube and set-up with a printout of advance vs. RPM.
     
    samsaprunoff likes this.

Share This Page