Changes at Boeing | Page 7 | FerrariChat

Changes at Boeing

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Bob Parks, Oct 11, 2019.

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  1. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Naw, I won't go off on a tangent about knowing Mira and watching him race "Wahoo" in the Gold Cup and having a terrible problem starting it to race in his heat and finally getting it started a half lap behind and almost making it it up with a wild wide open run for two laps until he flipped it in the north turn and sustained some serious injuries . But I saw hime fly at Abottsford twice with his Bucker picking up handkerchiefs with the wing tips. Crazy guy! No, I won't say anything.
     
  2. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I read somewhere that the Japanese were terrified of the PT's and their effectiveness.
     
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  3. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    The biggest issue with the PT boats was the really terrible reliability of US torpedoes.

    Of course, that was also an issue with subs and torpedo bombers, also...
     
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  4. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Morphing threads are some of my favorites. Learn all kinds of neat stuff.
     
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  5. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I understand that during the early stages of the battle of Midway, a U.S. sub found and torpedoed a Japanese sub, but the torpedo failed to explode. The Japanese were able to determine where the torpedo came from and successfully sank the U.S. sub.....
     
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  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #156 Rifledriver, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    The motors were an issue too. The support wasn't there either in parts, replacement engines or manpower to keep them running. They didn't last that long and they were pretty happy to have 3 running engines. At any given time few were able to make good speed. Parting out other boats was commonplace. There was even a song about it sung by the crews of the period. Do not remember the words but it was obviously a bad topic with crews.

    The reason so few survive is between the wood, the engines and fuel supplies few if any were brought back. They tied them together and set fire to large groups of them.
     
  7. furmano

    furmano Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Boeing drew down the rest of its credit they opened a few months ago. Hopefully that will be enough to carry them through. They're still in the woods.

    -F
     
  8. furmano

    furmano Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Credit rating cut by S&P to BBB because of cash flow issues.

    -F
     
  9. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Probably why their stock took a huge tumble yesterday (not doing my portfolio any good) and went down again today as all my other stocks went up!
     
  10. tritone

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  11. albkid

    albkid Formula Junior

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    Boeing appears to be in serious financial trouble and will need a bailout. It would not surprise me if the company gets designated as a national security asset, thus must be kept solvent. The comments in this thread tell a tragic story of the fall of a once great company.

    The off topic stories of WWII air combat have been compelling reading. Thanks guys.
    .
     
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  12. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I think they'll come back strong once the virus is past and the 737 MAX are back in the air.
     
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  13. Jeff Kennedy

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    Absolutely agree but when that corner is turned is nothing but speculation/blind hope right now.

    The re-certification of the MAX has become a political football. I am reading some reports where there looks to be an effort of tying any bailout to "consideration" on the 2 MAX crashes. Crap arguments by the uninformed!

    A real problem for Boeing will be keeping their supplier base functional so they can move forward.

    Other problem for Boeing is how long it take for a return to normal airline service and profitable passenger loads. The airlines and the lease companies won't want to be taking deliveries of new aircraft when there is no need to put the aircraft into revenue service. With the massive fall in oil prices there may be even less incentive to retire the older aircraft too quickly either.
     
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  14. tritone

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    I think this all spells out "....a very long time...." before "business as usual" returns.....
     
  15. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Flying in terms of tourism will take a vacine and years to recover. Buisness flying will be somewhat replaced by video conferencing which were all getting used to.
    We've gone from a capacity crunch due to the max grounding to no more new aircraft please. Can or will the airlines and leasing companies even pay for those max aircraft once the grounding is lifted. Theres going to be no new sales for a while.

    Boeing will be saved because it is a strategic asett, but recovery for Boeing is years off because even if it had the right products the customers are not here.
     
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  16. Bob Parks

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    This is NOT the fall of a great company. Boeing is still strong but gravely hurt from the cavalier and lackadaisical attitude of some of the management. There is too much good in this company that currently is producing some wonderful airplanes and they will continue to do so. I know too many talented and dedicated people who will continue to create many good things. They have to return to the mentality that made the company great in the first place, firm leadership from the top down and the concentration on producing the best airplane possible, not the cheapest. Get rid of the "new age whizbang shortcut costcut end runs" by the bean counters and design and build a superior engineered product like they did with the all the previous models. I've been there done that and I know that it works!
     
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  17. albkid

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    Bob:
    I respectfully disagree. The comments made by you and others point to a change in management philosophy from engineering to bean counting. It has been suggested strongly that this affected Boeing quality control which resulted in the loss of two aircraft. If pilot training was the reason, then they must be an internal reason why such training was inadequate; or, the aircraft software or sensors were faulty, or the simulators were not up to the task. These are the best hypotheses I can offer because I am not aviation specialist.

    Although I respect your years in aviation and your dedication to your field of expertise, the mass of 737s lying idle on the tarmac for over a year, falling into disuse which I suspect means a massive maintenance issue at some point if they can be returned to service is representative of the seriousness of what happened to regulator and purchaser confidence.

    The company has taken a brutal hit to its image. If the 737 Maxs are junked, the financial hit to Boeing will be massive. I submit that my argument was not made to start a flame war, but it is accurate. The idling of so many 737 Max aircraft remain a crisis and does demonstrate the fall of a great company.

    What I did not say is that Boeing is finished. With a management team that refocuses itself to the ideals for which you stand for -- outstanding engineering -- I have no doubt that Boeing can return to its former greatness.

    Larry Kudlow, a financial advisor to the President, suggested today that a bailout of Boeing may require the government to take an equity stake in the company. I submit that Larry Kudlow believes this would be a good investment. I further submit that Kudlow's confidence is in agreement with my position that the company can return to its former ideals of superior engineering and rebuild its image.
     
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  18. albkid

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    Bob:

    I would like to add two additional comments:

    1. I have been an electrical engineer for 45 years, and was a pioneer in the deployment of cellular telephone systems from the NE to West Coast. I am proud of what I did, and I never compromised my design principles or ethics. (I am an Eagle Scout and the tenants of Scouting formed the basis of character, and I have remained true to them since taking the oath at fourteen.)

    2. I just heard that the Nikki Haley has resigned from the Boeing Board. Good riddance. I hope Kathleen Kennedy resigns as well. I trust the search committee will identify more qualified candidates.

    Jim
     
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  19. INRange

    INRange F1 World Champ
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    Jim,

    I'm not sure why you would say that about Nikki Haley or Caroline Kennedy. Both women have tremendous reach in the world today with their relationships which has helped Boeing domestically and internationally. Besides......that is the least of their problems. As Bob points out the problem is one of leadership. The Board doesn't manage the company ......the Management team does. The Board tries to pick the best CEO that they can find but rarely does any Board get that right.

    Boeing's legendary strengths were its innovation and safety achievements. Every company goes through the business cycle of innovation and growth. The ones that have been around for a long time suffer from investors demanding more profit/dividends which causes a business to enter a "cost management" phase. Out the all technical companies identified in "Built to Last" written in 1994, Boeing, Ford, General Electric, Hewlett Packard have all crashed in this phase. Why?

    The simple answer is that in every case they went from an experienced Visionary (Jack Welch for example) to a Financial or "Socially responsible" person leading the company. Businesses that manufacture products are not social experiments. This type of thinking will destroy a company and history has shown this time and again.

    Boeing needs to regain its footing and return to the values Bob identifies. It needs a leader who loves aviation and wants to build the next generation of aircraft. It does not need anyone who worries about transgender bathrooms, Global Warming, Ebonics, Social Justice or any other du jour topic pushed by people who are clueless what it takes to build airplanes and space craft. Perhaps the most important trait they can have is to stand up to the investors, regulators and the public and do the right thing.
     
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  20. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    I believe that you are making a leap in logic on the MAX that is not there to be made.

    The MAX re-approval by the FAA is suffering from the political winds of the FAA. The FAA has been inventing bars for Boeing to jump as a moving target. Of course the FAA is also trying to appease the politicians in Washington (who only want sound bites without needing to understand the real issues) and some international FAA equivalents that want to score their own political points.

    All the parked MAX aircraft will be in a storage preservation program. The reactivation procedures are not particularly difficult. This is separate from the tasks related to the changes for the re-certification.

    I question how you even think that the MAX would be junked. Why would that happen? The aircraft is going to be re-certified and put back into service. It is an improvement to the 737 NG with better operating costs (the most important factor to the airlines). The airlines that are already 737 operators with MAX on order are not inclined to switch to Airbus - the costs to transition would be massive for all new parts provisioning as well as the crew & maintenance training. And, Airbus backlog is so large that a new order is going to be way down the line for delivery.

    There is one point that has been recently raised as a potential MAX issue for Boeing. Allegedly there are contract with a clause giving order cancellation rights if a delivery is more than 1 year late. In that case there could be some cancellations but it also allows for move-up of delivery sequence for those that still do want aircraft.
     
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  21. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    The parked 737's are being pickled, I believe, and there will be little or no deterioration while they are parked. The company isn't rolling over in spasms but it has been hurt but not so bad that it's going to die. It needs some help right now to regain some balance. The 737 Max is a good airplane but it has a soft spot in a critical system because of a soft spot in the chain of the management at the time. During my "career" there I saw the management save the company by quick and decisive action several times. Like they say, " Stuff runs down hill," and that applies to character of leadership being fed down through every discipline in the company. Quality and integrity were very strong elements from top down in the earlier programs and nobody argued with engineering. Proven procedures and processes were applied in all phases of operation and if a problem blew somebody's schedule it was made up and the quality of the product was sustained. Right now, the company still has a marvelous engineering staff and they work to their limits to produce the best there is but it is squandered when the "staff" downstream makes careless "money saving" decisions . Again, the soft spot in the chain of command. We would never have seen this with Allen, Stamper, or Mulally. I talk with my old group every day and they are still cranking away hard as ever but their morale has taken a little hit.
     
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  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The failure at Boeing is like the failure at Harley. MBAs and finance people running a company. Companies need to be run by people who embody and live the product they make and sell, aided and advised by MBA;s and finance people along with others.

    Putting Harvard MBAs and their imitators in charge and dominating boards has done more to destroy American manufacturing and products than all our foes combined.The MBA's are generalists and bring in efficiency and new processes so they have a key role to play, but it should not be the dominant one.
     
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  23. albkid

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    #173 albkid, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
    Gentlemen:

    As I said, I am not an aviation expert. I offered some of my fears, but I defer to you who know best. If the the Max can be brought back to service, I believe we can all agree that this is a desirable result. In addition, I have not overlooked how important the firm is to our national defense.

    As for board of directors, I have served on two in my career. During my tenure on one, we went through a phase where revenues were increasing and profits growing. Stock price rose. It was a great time. There was board turnover during this phase, and the "pioneers" left to be replaced by individuals who did not know the business. During a period of economic distress, I fought muddled thinking and disinterested decision making that affected the proper direction of the firm. Worker morale plummeted. It took a number of years to replace directors with qualified individuals who understood what needed to be done to respond to the changes in the economy. Ultimately, the fortunes of the company improved, and it bounced back stronger because of the collaboration of the board and executive management.

    Regarding my feelings of Halley and Kennedy, I am willing to continue our discussion in a private conversation if you so desire. I do not wish to sully the careers of these women in a public forum.

    As a final thought, you all have probably heard the joke about pioneers. We're the ones with arrows in our backs. From what I have read in this thread, there are a number of folks who bear such scars. I understand the feelings of one who has given his all to a company. If I was a Boeing stockholder, I am in sure I would be in distress. Please believe that the last thing I want to do is add to any pain you are feeling about what has happened to a great company.

    I think it is time for me to terminate my public offerings on Boeing for the aforementioned reasons.

    Best regards,

    Jim
     
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  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Tourism flying will come back as quickly as the economy does. Business flying may not. This whole episode has taught some there is another cheaper way and and will stay with it.

    As for me I'd get on a Max this afternoon if I knew it had a good qualified crew that are pilots and not data entry specialists. .
     
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  25. Bob Parks

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    Jim, this not a private club and your comments are valuable and welcomed. Please stick around. Boeing is a company that just happens to build airplanes and this conversation wouldn't be any different if Boeing was building Frisbees. We're sharing information and thoughts.
     

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