720s faster than Pista in Hockenheim GP (sport auto) | Page 5 | FerrariChat

720s faster than Pista in Hockenheim GP (sport auto)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by tekaefixe, Feb 21, 2020.

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  1. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    I’m amazed that 2RS feels more compliant than 3RS if I read you correctly? I think 2RS could be an outstanding machine. Although 3RS is ‘perfect’, on occasions it can be too loud on the road (attracts the wrong kind of attention) and the turbo motor getting torque down quicker could have real benefits on the road.
     
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  2. buddyg

    buddyg F1 Veteran
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    I use to drive in the Skip Barber formula Dodge series. That was an arrive and drive, the cars were all tuned to the same specs, so it came down to the driver. I had alot of fun doing that and raced with Ryan Hunter Reay.
    No muss no fuss!
     
  3. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

    Jun 11, 2006
    2,172
    Tampa FL
    From what I've seen ...

    Drag Race... McLaren 720s beats PistA every time

    Track Laps... Ferrari 488 Pista beats McLaren 720S

    Nothing new... But how many will drag race or laps these cars? Not many compared to what you see that happens with Porsche GT3-GT3RS-GT2RS which you can find plenty of them at any track day you go to. The Porsche GT cars punch higher than their horsepower and price.
     
  4. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
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    doesitmatter
    Porsche GT cars win based on Price, price, price, price

    The peter principle of most decently quick amateur drivers of the modern street track car is probably 600 Horsepower. The GT3, GT3rs are much easier for a good amateur driver to drive it 10/10th's (less horsepower and its easier to drive basically). Not so easy for that same amateur driver to drive 600 + HP cars 10/10ths. Most will not lap faster when they move up from gt3/gt3rs to gt2rs/pista/720s. Mainly due that Peter principle thing. People think "easier" is "faster" and/or "better".

    In Pro hands; Pista/gt2rs/720s will smoke gt3/gt3rs. They can drive those car's 10/10th's.

    It will take you a long, long time to get bored with a 720s/Pista because it will take you much, much more time and maybe never to be able to even drive them beyond 8/10th's without crashing. You'll get bored with gt3/gt3rs
     
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  5. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

    Jun 11, 2006
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    #105 mdrums, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    When did I say anything about how hard any of these cars is to drive or how fun or boring a car might be? If a car is easier to drive then that car is better designed. Listen to pro talk about car set up and making a car better and easier more stable and they will go faster. Because a car is harder to drive only means it sucks.

    The GT3RS is not getting smoked on a road course by a Pista and definitely not by a 720rs. Depending on the track a GT3rs can be 4 sec faster or 1 sec slower. If you do any road corse tracking which I believe I have seen you talk about the know that horsepower is not the ultimate deciding factor of how fast a car is.

    In so called pro hands the GT3 even being down 200hp is not that far off in lap time than a Pista...some tracks even faster....go look it up. While you are educating yourself go look and see lap times on a GT2RS and compare and speaking of price look and see how many cars that cost way way less are faster than 488GTB, Pista, 720s. Also note the advancement Lamborghini has made! I am not totally judging cars just on lap times either but the Pista is the best looking car in my eyes.

    As far as amateurs driving at track days the skill of drivers is a huge sweeping swath of skill level even in advanced solo groups and lap times per car model can’t be judged. Lap times of the same car model are all over the place.
     
  6. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #106 Shadowfax, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    Yes, the 2rs most definitely has a more sophisticated compliant feel to the chassis than the 3rs, clearly a step up in engineering and the car lets you feel there is a lot more thats gone into it from an engineering standpoint. It's smooth, compliant, yet so raw and brutal. It is an absolute monster on the open road. Crazy fast. The power is so immediate and unrelenting and feels so sharp of the line you can feel you need to be very careful on initial take off or things could go sideways especially if the tyres are not at temp. The power down acceleration on corner exit is just simply mad. If you like the gt3rs.2 you have to experience this thing up a mountain pass or on a track. It's f/g mad....no other words for it. Funny thing with the 3rs is it's so good and satisfying it's the kind of car you get out of wondering why on earth would you need anything more but then you get it the 2rs and it's like seriously what was I thinking. It is so next level. You should try and drive one in the right environment but again I must warn you it can bite on corner entry if you bring a lot of speed in beyond the usual brake marker and sudden lift off throttle things can go sideways very fast. The Pista OTOH is much less likely to bite like that and you can feel that in the way it corners and, through mid corner, but it does not punch out of the tighter corners quite like the 2. I don't think anything does. I can understand why some prefer the Pista as it forgives more where the 2 lets you know you need to treat it with some very serious respect. Even on tack I've had a few odd times which have put the fear of god into me. If you drive one in anger just make 100% sure your tyres are fully at temp - please remember this. Funny thing once the tyres are on temp you then have to learn to trust car with the massive cornering grip.
     
  7. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
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    I track and I track a lot. Many times with gt3rs, gt3, Pista, 720s, 600 LT. Different owners, different pro's, different race tracks.

    I've owned and tracked considerably gt3rs, 675 lt, 720s, 600 lt, etc.

    I stand by my previous posting. (my experiences, experiences of people who own multiple of those cars, experiences of the pro's driving those cars).
     
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  8. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    @dmark1 personal opinion on aesthetics is his subjective opinion, and his first post did not attack a 'member' but a car. This if fair game, albeit I agree very uncouth.
    Arguing if a car is beautiful or not is akin to trying to convince a vegan that lobster, foie gras, and wagyu is excellent and vice versa. Each person has their own 'truth' that is as real to them as whatever subjective opinion is true to yourself. So both of you are right and wrong at the same time.
    No need to grief a McLaren owner, I'm sure he's perfectly happy.
    I've found most of the time, you can allow folks to dig their own holes without you jumping in it as well.

    No bans (yet), but let's keep this to non-personal attacks.
     
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  9. Hmm, I kind of think the "compliant feel" of the 2RS vis-a-vis the 3RS has more to do with the extra weight of the 2RS than anything else.

    But I agree with you, the torque on the 2RS is addicting ... until you get into a Taycan Turbo S. :D
     
  10. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Just got one, had it delivered yesterday. The front wheels feel like they are coming off the ground when you launch ~800lb ft of torque. :)
     
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  11. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #111 Shadowfax, Feb 28, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
    No its not the extra weight at all. You can put a passenger in the 3rs and fill the fuel tank and the extra weight wont make it feel or ride like the gt2. Even my wife has noticed how the gt2 is much nicer than the 3rs in terms of compliancy and ride comfort. Its unmistakeable. Even the feel of the steering feels smoother yet so direct. How the engineers achieved making the car feel the way it does is nothing short of remarkable for a 911. Everything feels so precise and obedient. So is the 3 but the 2 feels so much more complete and next level. The 2rs and the Pista would smoke the 3rs badly in pretty well every way. 3rs is amazing but it is outclassed in this company. I can understand why some prefer the 3 over the 2 on a circuit as its easier managed in certain ways but it feels slow once you step into the gt2 or Pista. I still love it immensely though and would hate to sell it.

    Must drive a Taycan. If its that good i may buy one as a town car.
     
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  12. chipbiii

    chipbiii F1 Veteran
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    Different tracks could also produce different results.
     
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  13. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

    Jun 11, 2006
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    Hey it’s all good...I know it’s hard to tell voice infliction with typing on a forum...love to debate and discuss with others that love to track cars and discuss opinions. Have a good one!
     
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  14. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    I ordered a Taycan for my wife (she always wanted one, honest!) so looking forward to that. I am tempted by the 2RS but with other cars coming the 3 is a better bet for the moment, it offers something I don’t have in my garage. I think as an all-round supercar the 2 seems outstanding. The 3 though, I wonder how long an n/a car like that is for this world? Enjoy while it lasts I reckon.
     
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  15. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Hit me on the side and I'll fill you in on the Taycan, at least the Turbo S version.
     
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  16. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #116 Shadowfax, Mar 1, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
    Yes I totally understand. You have to have at least one atmo screamer to reference between the turbo beasts. The temptation of the 2rs would be easier to avoid if you can keep well away from driving one over a distance on a good road. It's then that you realize just how superior it is in every way. The 3 is all you would ever need for sure - amazing car and its only till you get into one that the thinking changes to which is the better and the 2 wins out for me. It's a very special car and a pity that you have to pass up on the ownership experience and get to appreciate the real differences. We have so many incredible choices nowadays anyway but I have to say I have found the 2 to be a genuine stand out. The 600lt also impressed me as a track focused car but it lost out to the 2 on the engine, sound, and the brake feel although I still would have bought one had the Pista allocation not come through back then. I'd take a 600 over an F8 though as it's more exciting. The 3rs is such a blast - and id take it over a 600 - but if it came down to choosing just the one 911 i'd reluctantly lose it as the 2 just delivers the full spread of sensations so well and is just so exciting and formidable out on the open road. It is such a weapon...can put some serious distance between a 3 on the straights. What other cars have you coming and what could you perhaps sacrifice? Have you thought about it? Btw did you get the new Macan turbo?
     
  17. Pis7a2020

    Pis7a2020 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2019
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    Here you go. The 2RS as back there somewhere. I assume you have both as well based on your comments?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  18. Pis7a2020

    Pis7a2020 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2019
    665
    Depends on the year of the 488. I had a 2016 and a 2019, and they were very different. I believe the 2019 has a different tune because it’s much faster than the 2016. Honestly, just get good sticky tires ( I’m partial to Cup 2) and keep your tire pressures in check. For the occasional track day, you should be fine running stock camber. However, you could always lower the 488 a bit using the stock coilovers and then get an alignment and more aggressive camber. Luckily, I befriended a Ferrari mechanic at one of the Ferrari driving schools, so he helps me set the car up from time to time. :)


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  19. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Just had 812 TM arrive, coming are Pista Spider TM, GTS, F8, SF90 plus Taycan.

    It’s obviously heavily Ferrari but I prefer them to Mac. I also have to pay over to get the Porsche GT product, which I don’t like, so I keep one in the garage but won’t go further than that unless they start offering allocations to me. I know that some of the Ferraris will be costly but I‘ll keep some of them and they only really depreciate if you sell them! The F8 will lose a bit but I won’t have it too long and the GTS should be ok too - I plan to sell that in favour of the VS. Think I’ll end up keeping the two TM cars and the VS - leaving an n/a flat 6 (3RS), an n/a V8 (Speciale), an n/a V12 coupe (812), n/a special 812 (VS/TDF) and a V8 turbo (Pista spider) in the garage, plus I’m currently running a Lusso and the Taycan soon arrives. I have some Subaru turbos too. I will keep the ones I enjoy owning and driving, the rest I will pass on for someone else to enjoy!

    Depreciation feels better than paying overs for a car someone else spec’d. I drive my cars and like dealing with my F dealer. I like to choose my own spec and I do that with a view to how I plan to use it and how long I will keep it.

    In view of all that, the 2RS is something I have passed on - the overs are high here in the UK (and I would struggle with paying that), plus I have turbo nicely covered with the Pista and rear-engined covered with the 3RS. It’s the choice I made but if I had have been given a 2RS allocation it would have been the other way around.
     
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  20. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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  21. mdrums

    mdrums Formula 3

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    Pretty much what I did with my Porsches...my last 991 GT3 I just lowered slightly, corner balanced an increased camber .5 degree from stock...Porsche actually gives you alignment setting in the owner manual.

    Like you mention with my 2019 488GTB all I want to do is run Michelin Sport Cup 2 245/305 Pista 488 Spec, maybe get these on a aftermarket set of forged wheels....lower on stock coil over about 1" and increase camber just slightly from stock but use stock caster, and toe.

    Did your Ferrari mechanic friend give you any ride height and alignment numbers you could pass on to me? Would super appreciate it! Thanks Mike
     
  22. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
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    It will be interesting to see how the new 765LT will actually perform on a track, and how it will be priced.
    I wonder whether it will push Ferrari to eventually "upgrade" the Pista just like they did with the 488/F8 (which was probably an answer - although rather late - to the 720S).
     
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  23. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #123 Shadowfax, Mar 3, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
    Yes. Thanks for the pic - nice garage! Re my earlier post I generally don't like calling guys out as it usually results in some form of conflict but I still don't buy your comments that the 2rs is boring in comparison to the Pista one tiny bit, therefore must unfortunately refer back to my alternative comment regarding driving skills. I've never driven a boring Gt car and fwiw I drive with 2 guys here who also own both Pista and 2rs (amongst other cars) and their story is much the same that the gt2 is the one more lively requiring more driver input. One prefers his Pista over the gt2 as he's mentioned he's a little scared of the gt2 - had a few moments - saying he prefers the Pista as the easier to manage - the other also feeling the Gt2 is the more lively between the 2 cars but also loves his Pista (as I do as well) so it doesn't support any claim or even the slightest suggestion that the 2rs is boring in comparison and that's forgetting all about the other vids and reviews on the 2rs quoting it as utterly amazing and very exciting to drive. I guess if it came down to a choice one may go either way - both cars have strengths and weaknesses some of which may suit one owner more than the other depending upon individual preferences and skill sets.

    Re your last post on 488 and the recommendations for track, again my experience on that car (which is also a very good car in many ways - although far more suited to the street than track - is that the 488 didn't cut it up against a Gt2rs in any way shape or form in terms of excitement and driver interaction other than having big power and speed. Once my Gt2 arrived and had been driven I had to get rid of the 488 and not just because I had a Pista incoming. It was just lacking in too many key areas. Also a 488 will burn brakes out very fast on a circuit - not exactly what I would call a great track car without changing discs and the likes. Lower one of those and the stock brakes can fry up and burn out if you push it. And i've seen it happen a couple of times now. Was told by the techs here some of that is to do with the air flow under the car and the brake ducts needing some work if it's lowered.
     
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  24. cridom60

    cridom60 Formula Junior

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  25. SmokinV10

    SmokinV10 Karting

    Oct 19, 2017
    50
    This is the true competitor to the Pista. Guys over in Mclarenlife seem to be lukewarm about it. Id argue that the difference between the 720S/765LT are consummate to the difference between the 488GTB/Pista but most current owners dont seem keen on upgrading.
     

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